I Said Stop.

Written by Writer Dad on October 1, 2008 - View Comments
Categories: Blogging

“I must do something” always solves more problems than “Something must be done.” 

~Author Unknown

When I published yesterday’s post, I expected two basic reactions: Good for you or You should be more careful.

I did not expect this:

You played cop over a sticker, lol. Bet you think you’re some hero now.

*unsubscribes*

That comment was beautifully articulated by Benjamin Solah, or Benjamin SoLONG as Kimmelin referred to him two dozen high fives later.

My response:

Benjamin: With a wide web between us, I’m unable to properly measure your sarcasm, so I’ll take your question straight.

No, I don’t think I’m a hero. I saved no one, and was considering my needs during the entire confrontation. Such are not the actions of a hero. I do all I can to make my neighborhood safe and friendly. The gaggle of hoods who stroll our streets, intimidating others and destroying property, are able to do so because no one is willing to stand up to them. They are not plastering a political message, or working toward change. They are simply being destructive, making the neighborhood feel unsafe, and wasting the time of others. The story wasn’t about a sticker.  It was about a disrespectful bully. This is clearly written. I imagine you must have your own issues with authority to respond as you did.

Yesterday’s comment wasn’t Benjamin’s first.  When someone takes the time to comment on Writer Dad, I do my best to stop by their site.  So I already knew Benjamin was a “Marxist revolutionary with a passion for writing fiction which shines a mirror on capitalism to reflect its innate horror.” 

Obviously I’m not convincing Benji of anything.  

A few hours later, Benjamin dropped another comment.

Writer Dad, I’m know I’m gonna cause a fuss, but I actually disagree with what you did. It’s a sticker, get over it. Do you really think you’re such a hero for making a kid peel a sticker off a stop sign? Does it matter at all?

No (again), I do not consider myself a hero, and yes it matters:

Benjamin: I understand your perspective, but it isn’t JUST a sticker. It’s pandemic. I live in a ghetto where public and private property are defaced daily. Stop signs get postal labels slapped on them, obscenities follow. The labels take half an hour to scrape off. My half hour, that I don’t have. If I don’t scrape the labels, they multiply. Exactly like graffiti.  We paint over that immediately as well.  You don’t have to agree, but I corrected a neighborhood bully while he was disrespecting community property in front of our preschool where we endeavor to teach our little ones respect. I did so with control and manners. Observing vandalism, and doing nothing, is apathy. That’s not me.

I’m not a Marxist, so perhaps the logic’s lost on me.  Benjamin tried to help me understand:

Sorry, I still think it’s all relative. Why is he sticking that sticker there? Why has he got nothing better to than to graffiti (aside from the fact some people actually find graffiti beautiful, as opposed to neat and perfect coz it looks unlived and inhuman IMO) but you said you live in a ghetto. So isn’t poverty more of an issue?

I’ve lived in areas where graffiti is rife, but it never bothered me, because the things around it were so much worse. I think when you look at businesses on the verge of being bailed out to the tune of $700 Billion, this poor kid gets ignored and the only way he gets noticed is to slap a sticker on a stop sign.

Many of you are probably wondering what Benjamin did to deserve this dedication.  Nothing.  It’s not about him.  He just happened to be the voice of ignorance (no offense, Benjamin.  Failed political infrastructure will do that).

This kid was victim of nothing.  He slapped the sticker on the stop sign because no one taught him different.  He’s one of the miscreants who meander around, mutilating their morals.  They do not create art or anything else.  Their graffiti is a sequence of barely legible letters, awkwardly scrawled onto the sidewalk (or the walls, windows, car doors, or anything they can get away with) in sharpie.  

Poverty isn’t the issue, it’s respect.  The kid was wearing an ipod, as do most of the kids in my neighborhood.  I’ve got a shuffle, his was a touch, but at least I have manners.  

I don’t understand people who, regardless of the facts, assume aggressor as victim, and hand out excuses like candy.

Benjamin, a $700 Billion dollar bailout has nothing to do with the fact that Mr. Mini-Thug needed to learn a lesson in simple human decency.  He tried to look cool, and got faced instead.  He accepted his consequence.  Why can’t you?

Writer Dad

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  • Teena
    I feel that you JUST MIGHT be a hero! (You just may never know it). My experiences teaching adults in a vocational school, (where most of our student population falls in the "poverty level bracket") has introduced me to many individuals that are void of any understanding of accountability. I REFUSE to dismiss actions that are very clearly the "Wrong" choice. I have embarked upon numerous encounters where I face-off with students and STRONLY urge them to be accountable for words or actions. At the time, they would never DARE reveal that I was getting through to them, however, I have been fortunate to receive cards and letters, thanking me and telling me that teaching them the importance of accountability changed their lives. They are truly grateful that I took the moment to teach them that simple, yet extremely valuable lesson. Most of them have grown up making these choices, hoping that someone would care enough to correct them. They are once again disappointed realizing that no one believed in them enough to bat an eye. A majority of them grow accustomed to being branded with lovely names like Loser or hearing that they will never amount to anything etc... Although you may not always have the pleasure to see the impact it makes, (if any) I believe it is better to TRY than to just sit and expect nothing better from another fellow, Human Being (just because you THINK that they don't "know any better"). Give them a LITTLE credit and you may be giving them the opportunity to make the "right" choice for the first time in their life. You never know......You MAY JUST be a hero to that ONE person!!! I say, go for it. Make this world a better place, one person at a time! Namaste' (no taking off for my run on's or punctuation.) :-)
  • Writer Dad
    Bruce: Glad you're hear Bruce. It is a fantastic conversation happening. Three days, still active, I like. I agreed with everything you said, and enjoyed the voice you said it in. I'm perfectly comfortable with role model. Thank you. I probably should have showed more caution, but honestly I've had several similar confrontation since moving in. I think, for the most part, they're all cowards and aren't used to being stood up to. Even so, I should definitely be more careful.

    GreenJello: I totally agree. We were poor when I was little, and I don't remember it ever occurring to me that I couldn't be rich when I grew up, so long as I wanted to. You were very lucky to grow up in the family that you did. You've passed that fortune forward. Thanks for sharing your voice.
  • @ Bruce Q "It's vandalism. Or, on another level, it's pissing all over everything just to scream "I'm here!"" I love it!

    Welcome!

    Jamie Simmermans last blog post..We Donate with Squidoo, Do You?
  • ...oh, PS: Pull my finger!
  • Having grown up in what would be classified as "poverty", I can guarantee that there is a HUGE component of poverty as a mindset.

    I never would have considered myself poor or wanting, if my peers hadn't pointed those things out to me. My family nurtured each other, my parents taught us the value of hard work and that doing well in school was All Important. We were loved and cared for, and encouraged.

    All six of us kids are very successful, and our own children do not live in the (material) poverty we did growing up.

    So, yes-- I firmly believe that respect and love are the true "redeemers" of poverty, whether or not the money/living situation improves or not. Attitude and being a decent human being are bigger than the poverty itself.

    GreenJellos last blog post..Letterbox-- Lehi Sugar Factory
  • Howdy, folks, newbie here. I've got loads o' thoughts, let me see if I can organize 'em a bit...

    1. Hot-diggety!!! This is awesome! This is why I love the Internet! I wonder if you all appreciate how completely unique this period of human development is. In one fell swoop, all geographic, ethnic, religious, economic, and political barriers have been erased. Everybody can talk to everybody, and anybody can find out virtually anything! The Universal Mind is birthed!

    So okay, that's a bit hyperbolic, obviously there's still some people (even some whole peoples) that don't have access to the 'Net. But it's almost true! And the beauty part is: It hasn't degenerated into complete anarchy and chaos! Humans Rock!

    2. There is no difference between stickering for a cause and stickering for kicks. Nor is there a difference between stickering and postering, unless you're talking about asking business and home owners if you can display your poster on their property.

    It's vandalism. Or, on another level, it's pissing all over everything just to scream "I'm here!"

    In fact, I take issue with calling it "stickering." I realize it's easier to type than "putting up stickers," but giving it a cutesie name both legitimizes it and implies acceptance. And we cannot accept vandalism! That way lies madness.

    It makes me furious when I see "news" programs referring to these punks and vandals as "taggers" or, worse, "graffitti artists." And then they go on to actually show some of the asshole's "work!" Is that supposed to help? Is that even "news?" I think not.

    3. You go 'Dad! Hero is a term that's used way too much, so I won't, but you've earned a place on my role models list for sure. What you did was very brave. You struck a blow for the side of good and we are in your debt. Then you blogged about it, making it bigger than just "one small step..." That, too, took courage!

    4. Please don't misunderstand, there is no "but" implied here, you did a brave and good thing, and I salute you. That being said:

    a. You made absolutely no difference to the vandal in question. You may have impressed the neighbors, and you certainly sparked a lively and important discussion, but I don't believe for a second that that kid is thinking about anything other than how much he hates you and how he can get back at you.

    b. What were you thinking?!? Since no one else seems to have said it, I will. That was unbelievably dangerous. How far were you going to go? If he had brushed you off and walked away, were you going to do anything but call the cops? Yell at him, take his picture, report him, but never NEVER get anything like physical with him!

    Scraping off stickers and removing graffitti sucks, believe me I know, but it's a total walk in the park compared to what might have happened.

    I guess what I'm saying is "Great job! Now don't ever do that again!"

    Daisy, the kids, and the world need you.
  • Writer Dad
    Dot: No need for apologies. That's the wonderful thing about articulate discussion. I'm glad you read, and thanks for coming back and responding. I love it!
  • Dot
    My intention wasn't to offend you or your readership. In skimming this long thread (I was sick and missed reading it until it was huge), I misinterpreted those two comments. My apologies for that.
  • Writer Dad
    Blogger Dad: Dingleberries.

    Jamie: Every dollar well spent.

    BJ: I adore what you said here. I agree about the first two, and I'd love for you to be right about the third.
  • I am going to make a couple predictions:

    1) Writer Dad's act of parenting will be an ongoing ripple in this kid's life. He might even be thankful in the future.

    2) Writer Dad's actions will be a ripple in his neighborhood. Perhaps others will begin to stand up and take action as well. Just seeing one person behave thus is often enough to encourage others. If the kids need parenting, they might have just found a few extra "parents" to help guide and correct them.

    3) The discussion here today will be an ongoing ripple in the blogsphere. Articulate, thought-out debates by people who can write! Heaven! So, Writer Dad, what's the next topic going to be? ;)

    One voice is a street corner. 10 voices is a neighborhood. Here's to growing good things!

    Consequences, while often painful, are a necessary learning tool. I'd much rather my kid "suffer" the consequences of a concerned parent and citizen than find no real consequence until his first arrest. Just my two cents.

    B J Keltz
  • @BloggerDad Sure thing, I'll send you my bill. I take payments in French Fries or chocolate chip cookies. Maybe I should convert my website to an online therapy session, drive-thru brain re-wiring, one-stop-shrink-shopping website....

    @Writer Dad WOOT! I knew all that tuition money would not go to waste.
  • kittytown - :)

    Jamie - Thanks, therapist Jamie. That has a nice ring to it. I'll send you your recruitment gear for our war on the Golden Arches.

    Writer Dad - boogers.

    Blogger Dads last blog post..Taking a moment to reflect
  • Writer Dad
    Janice: There is not, but please, at least for now, do not get me started on the media. You teach the one in front of you, then enjoy the ripple effect.

    Blogger Dad: Fart.

    KittyTown: Word.

    Jamie: That was amazing. You are officially awesome.
  • OK, How's this for mature:

    According to Berger's The Developing Person Through the Life Span, Postformal Thought (adult thought) is defined as an adult stage of cognitive development, that goes beyond adolescent thinking by being more dialectical (more capable of combining contradictory elements into a comprehensive whole).

    It appears that Benjamin has not reached this stage of cognitive development, therefore the only arguments you will receive from him are the "I'm right" type we have seen thus far. (How's that for grown-up talk? Do I sound like a therapist yet?)

    For balance:

    I heart Kittytown, bad language and all.

    I heart BloggerDad and wholeheartedly support his war on McDonald's. Wage on Diaper Dude.

    Jamie Simmermans last blog post..Pick Another Pen Men Brain: Charlie Pabst
  • kittytown
    @Dot, yes, exactly what WD said. My issue was NOT that Benjamin should not comment not being from the U.S. My issue is that Benjamin was taking issue with U.S. politics from the perspective of an American, which rubs me the wrong way. Benjamin was never attacked, and he was treated with at least the same degree of maturity that he himself displayed:

    (lest we forget the initial comment that started this all)

    "You played cop over a sticker, lol. Bet you think you’re some hero now.

    *unsubscribes*")

    "Lol" indeed if this is considered mature.

    But I would like to throw my lot in with Blogger Dad and agree.... immaturity can have value. Mainly, it can be fun. I like to laugh. Poop. Boner.

    Also, Dot, Benjamin has yet to seriously address any of the discussion in opposition to him or any of the questions posed to him. Why not? Why is he so quick to dismiss our thoughts? He seems to have no interest in an open and honest exchange of ideas. Everything from him has been basically "this is what I think and I am right and fyou if you disagree."

    I, for one, LOVE debates with people I disagree with. If the other person actually thinks about what they are saying and their points. I love to learn new ideas and have no problem with being wrong. And there is nothing to make you flesh out your own opinions quite like having to defend them to someone who disagrees with you. Benjamin has not offered this to us. He has not rebutted our points nor expanded on his.

    And Dot? The nicknames? Benjamin takes an awfully long time to write out. I'll take B.S. any day.
  • Jim - Thank you, but no apology was necessary on your part. I wrote that against the clock, so it was probably not as clear as it should've been. I try to see both sides of major issues. I've always been the type to try and bridge the gaps with knowledge rather than extend them by clinging tight to one belief or side at all costs. Though there are times, particularly when I'm writing humor or an opinion piece, that I will choose sides.

    Writer Dad - Yes, this has been a very mature discussion, for which your readers are to be commended. Having said that, perhaps it's been a bit too mature.
    POOPIE!
    There, that should correct the situation.

    Blogger Dads last blog post..Eight Questions - Interview with Barbara Swafford of Blogging Without a Blog
  • Personal responsibility. That's what runs through all of this. And mindfulness. There is very little discussion in the media of that is there? Not much drama, no ratings to be had. Just simple acts of respect and follow through on matters that build character.

    It's the kind of thing that good parents and teachers and other role models DO, often one person at a time. So I have to disagree with Benjamin about that uphill battle of calling out one individual at a time. You don't teach every child, you teach the one that is right in front of you at the time.
  • Writer Dad
    Dot: KittyTown did not have issue with him commenting without being from the U.S. Her issue was that he was speaking of the problems of the United States in the first person, which has no authority to do. All comments are welcome. His was unique in that it spoke of things to which he could know only from second hand sources. I am not defensive in the least. If you refer back to the comment, I did not call Benjamin a spoiled brat. I called the ipod wielding vandal a spoiled brat, to which he is, unequivocally. This assessment, for me, is not second hand. KittyTown, in case you did not realize, is my sister. We are going to have a banter that is different from everyone else. I did not engage in such juvenile behavior with everyone else. KittyTown has every right for that sort of response from me. She has after all known me since I was a juvenile. All said, I think you would be hard pressed to find a more mature discussion elsewhere. I'm proud of the WD readers. I think they showed measured, articulate intelligence, and did not attack Benjamin as he assumed they would. He has been asked a bounty of questions which he has yet to respond to. My exchange with my sister notwithstanding, the entire incident, in my opinion, has been handled with a maturity to be proud of.
  • Dot
    About Benjamin Solah -- he did actually have a point to make, even though he was overly sarcastic and mean about it. I was glad to see that people responded to that. kittytown's objection that he ought not to comment if he's not from the US was rather odd, appearing as it did after favorable comments from people outside the US who did not get challenged for commenting.

    Writer Dad, why so defensive? I'm sorry, but agreeing with Matthew that "He [Benjamin] is a spoiled brat" is not "behaving like a gentleman." While the comments Benjamin wrote were insulting and provocative, that comment of yours, along with your defenders (mostly kittytown) using nicknames for him, making fun of his initials, calling him most likely "a kid" who's "no more than 21," and the other putdowns have left me feeling a bit soiled.

    As we said when I was a kid, two wrongs don't make a right. Surely you all are more mature than this?
  • @Blogger Dad - Sorry, guess I misread your post. I like that you can observer both sides of the discussion.
  • Mellissa, Ian and Jim - My post describes the theory of the bailout from the perspective of those who argue that it should happen. I'm not arguing in favor of a bailout. I was simply trying to explain the stakes and why it should and how it COULD matter to the average person. I used an example of unforeseen events which have happened because of Florida's voter-approved property tax cuts last year. The people voted for tax cuts thinking they would hurt the wasteful government that doesn't care about them. In fact, the opposite has happened. Voters shot themselves in the feet. Although, I'm sure some of the voters don't mind because the cuts don't affect them personally. Believe me, if there is economic pain from a shot down bailout plan, it will be felt by the average person on the street more than the much despised CEO's.

    Economics is a very complex issue so I won't presume to say I know what they should do. I see both sides. The side for it, and the side against it. Some on the far, FAR, FAR left (somewhere in Benjamin land) suggest that the bailout is simply a plan for the Bush administration to overthrow democracy.

    Kittytown - Thanks for the love. It's a mutual thing! And I don't think I've ever been compared to Ayn Rand before :) By the way, that McDonald's you went to must have been Mayor McCheese's Mansion! That is where I will stage my McRevolution! Now if only I knew someone who could help me spread some anti-McDonald's stickers... Hmmm, anyone?

    Blogger Dads last blog post..Eight Questions - Interview with Barbara Swafford of Blogging Without a Blog
  • Writer Dad
    Jim: It is, isn't it? What Ian said is one of my favorite things so far. Thank you for your childhood example. I think that's amazing. I do believe it's important to have a positive outlook, and be willing to work hard. Good things often follow.

    Blake: Those numbers are perfectly believable. And sad. Thank you.

    KittyTown: You're not being a bitch at all. That's funny about B.S. In my first draft of yesterday's post, I had all kinds of nicknames for Benjamin. That was one. In the end, I decided to rewrite the post and behave like a gentleman. I'm glad you did it for me. It's too beautifully obvious to pass up.

    I remember when you told me about this doc, I think on our last wedding setup. I've yet to check it out, but I promise I will. Everything you said is dead on, and yes, Blogger Dad is the unadulterated shit. I wasn't kidding about you doing a guest post about how you chased down the mugger. It would be awesome. If you don't want to, could you email the specifics so I could write it? Please fill it with typos so I'm not tempted to use it like last time.

    By the way, happy anniversary. I love you.

    Writer Bro

    Beth: There is a wide difference between political peppering and vandalism. One has purpose, one does not.
  • There are so many great comments in this discussion. I have a few things to add:

    First of all, I do see some value in graffiti. It is often artful. I also see some value in political stickers. I would be a lot more tolerant of political stickers on my stop sign than just some random sticker.

    This issue came up for me during the Democratic National Convention in Denver. I was on the streets, amazed by the legions of police. What were they so afraid of? That some corporate guy wouldn't get to his party on time?

    I think we've forgotten that exercising our rights to speech and allowing others to exercise theirs will inconvenience us some of the time. But it might also make us think.

    That said, I still agree with what Writer Dad did. I just would draw a line between stickering for kicks and stickering to make a political point.

    Beths last blog post..Wandering around Uptown
  • kittytown
    I'm sorry for being a bitch, but I've just known too many kids like Benjamin (I'm assuming he's a kid from how unformed and parroted his arguments are... my guess is no more than 21). When I went to school at UC Berkeley, I called them "Mumia-ists" based on freeing Mumia, a pet cause back then. In general, these are the most close minded people I have ever met. Benjamin says that people are not taking his point, but what's actually going on is everyone else is giving his ideas far more respect than he is returning. Benjamin will never change his mind or listen to reason. . . it's just not his M.O.

    That said, there has been loads of lovely, well-articulated discussion here (none of it coming from Benjamin whose initials spell B.S., btw).

    a couple more asides:
    1. has anyone seen thestoryofstuff.com ? It's a movie (slightly pandering but I'll forgive it) about our consumer driven culture and it's amazing. Very pertinent to what WD and BD have been saying with regards to the bailout. The gist of it is that our government made the decision post WWII to make our economy a consumption based one to kick start it... basically sending us into the horrible spiral we're in now and causing a great deal of our environmental and economic problems

    2. Here in the good ol' USA, we're pretty damn spoiled. We have such a horrible sense of entitlement. A lot of people are pissing and moaning about being "poor" when they are insanely wealthy compared to past generations. I have spent a good deal of my adult life living "below the poverty line" according to the government and yet I have always had my own apartment and never lacked for essentials. Not having cable TV, an SUV, an iphone, etc etc does not mean you are "poor." We really need to get a sense of perspective.

    3. Is ANYONE else bothered by the fact that our friend B.S. (Benjamin) is an Aussie? Dude, you're not American so quit talking about our problems like you are one. P.S. what the hell are you doing blogging. . . don't you know there's a BAILOUT to worry about?
    (and because internet sarcasm doesn't come through... that was a reference to Benji's first or second post 2 days ago).

    4. Finally (sorry for rambling so much) Blogger Dad, I love you. Truly and sincerely. It's like you're saying what I'm thinking. You're all Ayn Rand if she weren't insane and homophobic. Plus, your post about McDonald's was fucking hilarious. And P.S. I went to a McDonald's in Georgia last month that had marble columns, plants, and a frigging fireplace. They are NOT doling out the McDonald's love equally.
  • WD, you're right. I mistyped. The cost of providing basic health, nutrition, and clean drinking water for the world is estimated to be $20 billion.

    Which is how much Americans spend on ice cream alone in one single year.

    You knew we spent more than $8 billion on ice cream, right?

    Blakes last blog post..Writer Dad…check him out
  • This is a great conversation!

    @Blogger Dad - I can't see how this bailout is good. I read your comment but still do not see the good in it. You say if the market crashes then we will see a domino affect. Why should we be bailing out the people who made this happen? Why should there be no consequences for those who caused this? Why does the government take our taxes and put them in the stock market? If that was not the case, the money we give would be safe and not be lost when the "big money" players sell their stocks and crash the market. From what I can see Bush said the market will hurt if the bill doesn't pass, to me he was just telling them to bring it down and scare everyone that the market will crash. Then it drops 200 points and now he says, see what I told you.
    Look, I am not a financial analyst or claim to know anything about the economy, but this doesn't feel right.

    @ Kool Aid - Agreed!

    @ Ian - "Vote" with the wallet, perfect. We do have some control over this, not much but some. If we could get enough people to do the same thing, it could work. But too many people are not listening.

    As for Victim / Poverty mentality. This is what I believe and it has worked for me. I grew up in RI very poor. I mean very poor with a crackhead for a mother. I have a background that should have me in jail or living on the streets. But I believe in the "Law of Attraction" and it has helped me to be successful and own many businesses while living in beautiful Costa Rica. Maybe I am lucky, but I think it has to do with attitude.
    If you are positive and truly believe that there is something better out there, that something better will come to you. So says the law of attraction. Read "the Secret", it was an eye opener for me.

    ~ Jim
  • Writer Dad
    Melissa: Please don't every worry about a typo. We're all human, and I make them all the time. I have no problem with differing perspective and I quite enjoy debate. I feel that Benjamin is being evasive, however, and not answering any of the readers' perfectly legitimate question.

    Benjamin: The post will still be here next week. You have all the time in the world to answer the questions. This is good. Let them marinate, so that they might be sharper. America IS the land of opportunity. Yes there are flaws, yes they are numerous, yes there is work to be done, but it is still an amazing country where you can climb the ladder no matter who your father was. Even uphill battles are worth fighting, why else would you be a Marxist? By plastering 20,000 stickers you forced yourself on all the janitors you claim to care for. There is a wide chasm between stickering and postering. One has nothing to do with the other. This kid wasn't on a march, he was being blindly disrespectful without anything to say. It's quite obvious that it is his behavior you are defending, not him. Your last sentence is ridiculous. Enjoy your holiday. I hope we hear from you next week.

    Blogger Dad/Melissa: I should probably do an entirely separate post on the economic bailout, as it's a great discussion. I know this won't win any friends, but I think we should see the country's economy collapse, and then, as a nation, work our way through it. We were never stronger than we were after the Great Depression. People are spoiled, and don't know what it's like to be hungry. We've swept the problem under the rug for too close to an infinity, the Fed lowering the interest rate every time the country starts to sweat. They've constructed finances with a house of cards, and it was bound to collapse. The best way to make sure it doesn't happen again, is for there to be a drastic consequence that makes us all reevaluate our own behavior.

    Benjamin: I thought you were on holiday. It's amazing that you still have time when someone agrees with you.

    Ian: Nail on head, brother, nail on head. Everything, not a single word out of place.

    Jamie: A lot of people don't want to change. Though the degrees vary, everyone in this country is afforded some level of opportunity. This is not true in all political systems, and something that Benjamin is refusing to recognize.

    Miguel: I do not know you well, but I read depth in your words (and I love what you do with the duality on your site). I agree with everything you are saying.

    Kool Aid: It is absolutely vandalism. No difference. Still, I have more of a problem with the kid than I would the other way. Even if I don't agree, at least one has purpose. My vandal had none whatsoever, which is why he needed to understand that their were consequences to his actions.

    Blake: That is a fantastic quote. $8 Billion for the entire globe's drinking water sounds unreasonably cheap. I'll have to look that up. But the point is well taken.
  • Here's a quote by Bono. I found it interesting:

    “It is extraordinary to me that you can find $700 billion to save Wall Street and the entire G8 can’t find $25 billion to save 25,000 children who die every day of preventable treatable disease and hunger,” the U2 lead singer told Clinton’s fourth annual philanthropic summit in New York. “That’s mad, that is mad.” … “Bankruptcy is a serious business and we all know people who have lost their jobs,” Bono said, referring to the bankruptcy declared by Wall Street investment bank Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. “But this is moral bankruptcy.”


    Also, in order to provide clean drinking water to the entire globe, it would cost roughly $8billion. That's how much we Americans spend yearly on ice cream.

    I guess I should put that on a sticker, huh?
  • "Oh, and yeah, I have stuck stickers up. Not just randomly, though. There were about 20,000 stickers printed with the words “Stop Bush!” and protest details, last year, before Bush came to Sydney. I proudly played a key role in stickering the whole of Sydney that brought 20,000 people out to protest War, Racism and Poverty of Bush and Co."

    Benjamin,
    I'm just curious, what makes you different from the kid stickering postal stickers around WD's neighborhood? If it's to be broken down, isn't it just as vandalizing? Just because your stickers have a political statement, does that take away the "vandal" part of it? Isn't there someone who is responsible for cleaning up all the stickers and posters that you put up all around Sydney?

    I'm all for free speech and the right to protest, but I would be offended if it were my office building that you so proudly stickered/postered, whether I agreed with your message or not. Feel free to sticker your own property. Walk around carrying a great big sign. Stand on a street corner and pass out flyers. Don't resort to vandalism just to get a point across. I'm actually a little surprised that you see a difference in these two events.

    What would you have done if a Writer Dad had confronted you about putting a sticker in their neighborhood in Sydney?

    Kool Aids last blog post..The ripple effect
  • First of all, I don't want to speak about politics and I will not.

    Again, I believe this has nothing to do with politics at all. It has to do with, what I call, the "monster" effect. That is when somebody disagrees with us in some core issue we tend to think he is either immoral, stupid or both.

    It is not so.

    Benjamin, with all due respect, the core of this issue is not if that boy was poor or not. But that he wanted to do what he wanted or else. Root issues? Sure. But we have absolutely no way to know what they are.

    Then you came and made a personal attack on Writer Dad. I do believe what I have read is a personal attack. If it's not, sorry, but apparently that's how your words have been interpreted by many people. Not just me.

    I don't believe you are trolling, or trying a sneaky way to drive traffic to your site. My heart still moves when I listen Bau Auf, the International or the Varshavianka. 1991 was personally devastating for me...

    But, still and precisely when you are addressing someone who has vastly different political or religious view to yours, you have to use extreme courtesy. Only then, you can help to honest and serious thought.

    Miguel de Luiss last blog post..May I help you?
  • I have to chime in about the poverty mentality thing, sorry.

    I was a home health nurse for 7 years, and worked the hospital for 3 before that. I met a lot of people, from all walks of life. I was in homes weekly, sometimes daily. I became intimate with their way of life; I knew where they kept the toilet paper, and their stash of weed. I knew when they slept till noon, became depressed, or were having a bad day. Many of my patients, perhaps 50%, were below the poverty level.

    So many times, I would put on my social worker hat and offer these people ways to raise their income, get an education, get off the system and support themselves. More often than not, they would throw out excuses, fight tooth and nail to keep their government issued check.

    My guess is that fear kept them from something better, from change. However, I watched as these people taught their children to be poor instead of telling them about the possibilities life has to offer. It was almost as if there was pride in being poor.

    In frustration, I called it 'generations of stupid', because it was a family heritage to be uneducated and poor, even when opportunities were presented to live differently.

    There is a poverty mentality. I have no idea who is to blame, but it exists. Perhaps the fear of the unknown and fear of change is to blame, but that's part of living life. We all must face down fear and make the decision to jump in with both feet, over our heads. Dive Deep.

    This concludes my sermon for the day, thank you for listening. ;)

    Jamie Simmermans last blog post..Pick Another Pen Men Brain: Charlie Pabst
  • Ian
    Blogger Dad,

    I disagree that the bailout is necessary, no matter what the "domino effect". The fact is we cannot fully know what the domino will be nor how far it will stretch. It would take too long to do the math, so blanket statements are made. I think that citing the possible problems is a fear tactic used by politicians trying to get the proposal passed. If there were widespread fallout, then perhaps it would be a good thing by finally waking people up to the importance of business ethics, which seems to have fallen by the wayside despite what news media would have us believe.

    Melissa,

    Very good points. I disagree that wealth is something to be ashamed about. I think the acceptance of unethical business practices is something to be ashamed of. But that should not fall to government to police. In a capitalist market which so many people say they want in this country, the consumer needs to "vote" with their wallet. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The art of the boycott is lost in this country. It is effective. Far more effective then the random government intervention into consumer industries based upon the constituents with the biggest bankroll. Either we let the consumers handle which businesses succeed and fail or we let the government decide. We cannot have both and expect the economy to work. The bailout will ultimately hurt our economy. I can guarantee that.

    Benjamin,

    I disagree that the act of raising a minimum wage does anything good for the country other than pumping a little more disposable income into the pockets of people who will not save it, but rather waste it on luxuries like cable television while complaining that they are poor. I lived in an area of my city with a large amount of subsidized housing, where most people were on food stamps, and yet almost every home had a flat screen television and digital cable service. I'm not saying that poor people should not have these things, but I was astonished that these people were not responsible enough to cancel their cable when strapped for cash. The average cable bill is nearly $200 USD per month!

    I made much more than minimum wage while living there in regular housing, and I had neither a television nor cable service. If anything, the middle class in this country are the ones who get screwed most often. Education is easily attainable for those with and those without money, but if you fall in the middle, you had better go get your own bank loan because financial aid is reserved for others.

    There are lots of opportunities in this country for those who want it. Sometimes you need to know where to look, but then again, if you want to effect change in your life, you should show a desire to do so. Simply giving more handouts does not cause a behavioral change that is needed in some people. Giving more handouts to those who do not try to do anything for themselves just reinforces that behavior positively.

    Again, not every person in poverty is the same. Some try hard to get out of it. Some don't try at all because it's easier to live off of handouts than to try to scratch your way to a "better" life. Why? Because there's a level of income that, once reached, will cut you off from government assistance, but still leave you well short of the money needed to survive. The "poverty level" line is not a clear cut definition between being able to make ends meet and not. There's a wide income range that is not livable in the United States.

    Once again, this has turned into a compelling conversation, and it would be even more interesting if you expounded upon your points. I have taken the time to read some of your articles on your site to gain a better understanding of your beliefs and background. I don't think 50 people missed your point. I think 50 people have presented arguments (some rather eloquent) to your point, and not all of those arguments are the same either.

    In any case, I am rambling and have spent too many words in this comment. Be well and enjoy your mini-holiday.

    Ian

    Ians last blog post..Market for IPO’s Hit 30-Year-Low
  • I love your points Melissa. Hurricane Katrina was such a stark example of this societies priorities.
  • Oops, my last comment should have been addressed to Blogger Dads. Let's see, Writer Dad, Blogger Dad, and my own Dad. That's a lot to keep track of!

    Melissa Donovans last blog post..October News and Announcements
  • Hey Writer Dad,

    I love a good conversation like this ;) Yes, I understand that the bailout is needed to help many (not just a few) and I also realize that failing to pass the bailout would have dire consequences through the domino effect that you've mentioned.

    What's bothering me about it is that there are other problems in our society that have a domino effect, which the government (particularly the current administration) takes no initiative to resolve. Poverty is one such problem. I shudder when I think about how Hurricane Katrina's victims were ignored for days. Reporters could get in, but not the government? It was a travesty.

    There are a lot of different perspectives on this bailout and on the economy at large. I am not claiming to have a specific position on it (I don't know enough to really take such a position). What I do know is that most people living in the ghetto don't even know that there's a way to get out. Many inner city kids believe they will die before they turn 20. They sell drugs not because the money's good (it's not -- in fact it's often lower than minimum wage) but because there are no jobs in their communities. They attend schools that are overcrowded and run-down, that don't have adequate books and equipment. Their morale is shot to hell. A lot of them live in single-parent homes with a parent who is never around or who is just as ignorant about opportunity and potential.

    Who is to blame for this epidemic of poverty in our nation? Who is responsible for fixing it? How do you tell millions of depraved, impoverished people that they can do more with their lives?

    My point is that we are willing to do this bailout but so unwilling to put taxpayer money to other good causes. Ending poverty, particularly here in the U.S. should be a high priority. Believe me, I do NOT support free handouts, but there are people who could benefit greatly from just a little help, a little inspiration, and some good old-fashioned education.

    Confucius said, "In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." I tend to agree with him.

    Melissa Donovans last blog post..October News and Announcements
  • Melissa - According to supporters of the bailout, it is necessary to not only protect the CEO's, but also everyday people.

    Here's my attempt to explain the situation as I understand it. If anyone spots an error, feel free to correct me. While I've covered some financial issues in my capacity as a newspaper reporter, it was not my primary beat, so some of this stuff is beyond the scope of my knowledge.

    The theory is that the bailout is needed to put money into the financial system. Right now everything is grinding to a halt due to a tightening credit market, which is mostly due to the HUGE housing crises and subprime mortgage mess. (That would take a whole page to explain).

    So, the theory is that without money, the markets will tank.

    Now, here is why that matters to YOU.

    If the market crashes, then there is a domino effect. For instance, your state and local government likely have investments tied up in some of these companies. Those investments provide revenue. If that revenue is lost, the money comes from where? Well, it could come in the form of cuts to local government - teachers, firefighters, police.

    Where I live, in Florida, the state is facing the unintended consequences of voting for a mandatory tax decrease last year. Of course, people voted for a budget cut, because the average person feels that the government wastes money. While this is true in many areas, there are some cities and counties who do spend responsibly. However, they too will suffer now. While the average Floridian might save somewhere between $100 and $400 a year on their property taxes depending where they live, lawmakers were forced to make massive budget cuts. And while yeah, some pork will be cut, in some areas, those cuts will dig deep into vital tissue.

    Several teachers have lost their jobs, school programs have been cut, police and fire have either cut positions or frozen them to make up for the budget cuts. And projects which were once budgeted such as road improvements and other infrastructure which NEEDS to be maintained will be put on hold.

    Now that they are seeing the unintended consequences of their vote, many of the people who supported the tax cuts now regret their decision as it has come to affect them adversely.

    The other bailout issue is that it will help free up credit that companies lend one another. When credit lines freeze up, employers can't pay their payroll, can't pay their expenses, they have to cut positions or close up.

    I hope I've helped to give some clarity to a complex issue.

    Blogger Dads last blog post..Eight Questions - Interview with Barbara Swafford of Blogging Without a Blog
  • Maybe 50 people missed my point, or just disagree. I know baulking on answering all those question will take you to think I'm backing down, but honestly, I'm doing this from work and am off to the country with my girlfriend for three days, might even get some writing done.

    Good to see Blogger Dad and Melissa could take my points on the bail out and poverty. There is an inequality in society, between the rich and the poor and it's systematic. I think your point that "America is the land of opportunity" highlights our disagreement. I'd say America, and indeed Australia and other Western Countries show this massive divide between rich and poor. Our countries have people who work increasingly longer hours, for smaller wages. When was the last time the minimum wage was raised?

    You may think that the economy has nothing to do with what this kid did, even if he was rich or poor, but you can't just look at each person individually and tell them to stop it or you'd be losing an uphill battle.

    Oh, and yeah, I have stuck stickers up. Not just randomly, though. There were about 20,000 stickers printed with the words "Stop Bush!" and protest details, last year, before Bush came to Sydney. I proudly played a key role in stickering the whole of Sydney that brought 20,000 people out to protest War, Racism and Poverty of Bush and Co.

    So, I had been thinking why did I bother disagreeing? I knew I was gonna open a can of worms and be in a minority. It's happened before. (and I wasn't disrespecting your audience, it's just I've been attacked before.) But I often sticker and poster about protests and political events, and busy-bodies stick their nose in and tell us we're vandalizing. Think of all the political movements that have won so much change around the world, and I bet you there were a dozen kids sticking posters up to tell people about those movements.

    Maybe it's a long shot comparing this kid's stickering to our postering, but if this kid can't do it, neither can we.
  • EEK! Typo in my last comment. I hate that. Really hate it. "Whome," of course, should read, "whom."

    Grr.

    Melissa Donovans last blog post..October News and Announcements
  • Quite an interesting discussion going on here...

    I have to confess, when I first read the story of Writer Dad confronting the vandal, I did think "Geez, it was just a sticker." But then I realized that Writer Dad was protecting his property, his neighborhood, and the kids for whome he is responsible. Graffiti is both a nuisance and an art, depending on who you are and what you see when you look at it.

    Benjamin makes a good point, however, in bringing up the bailout. Our government is willing to issue $700 billion to save a few companies and rescue people's savings and investments, people who have extra money (obviously, if it's invested, they're not living month to month). Meanwhile, that same government does very little to rescue or bail out people who have nothing at all, people who live in ghettos or suffer from poverty.

    Writer Dad and Benjamin are both right in what they've said and done. I personally would applaud them both. Now, let's all shake hands, and hey, don't forget to vote!

    Melissa Donovans last blog post..October News and Announcements
  • Writer Dad
    Daniel: Thanks. It always means a lot when a new reader looks behind. I'm glad to have you and hope to read your words again.

    James: I would never try to please everybody, just everybody behind my fence. Thanks for the applause.

    Blogger Dad: I agree with everything you just said.

    Benjamin: It doesn't really surprise me that after fifty comments saying beautifully articulated, reasonable variations of the same thing, you would think that all of them were missing your point. Perhaps you should sharpen your words into a finer point. You haven't answered a single direct question that has yet been asked.

    I agree with you about Wendi's comment. However, allow me to clarify what I believe she is saying (Wendi, if I may).

    Wendi is not referring to worldwide problems of poverty. She is referring to the poverty here, in our country. The people who live in my neighborhood have every opportunity to change their circumstances. Many of them buy things they do not need, and drive cars they cannot afford. There are also many hardworking families, who are frugal and friendly. They are poor, because they came to this country to seek a better life. Their children will be better; their children's children better still. It may not be perfect, but America is the land of opportunity. That's why they came here. It's why my grandparents came here.

    Life is filled with roadblocks, and sure opportunity isn't the same for everyone. Far from it. But what you are saying is ridiculous.

    You insulted the audience yesterday when you made the presumption that they would attack you on your site. It makes sense you would think this, seeing as how you are the one without regard for the property of others. If you would like to make it up to them, perhaps you could answer a few of their earlier questions. I've saved you the trouble of gathering.

    1) Is it possible that you could be wrong, and that this kid heard the message?
    2) Is it possible that someone watching from the shadows was inspired to stand up for their own property the next time it's defiled?
    3) Is it possible that a child watching from another corner, not yet old enough to have chosen which crowd to hang with, learned to see things differently?
    4) What would you, Benjamin, have done while running a preschool and someone is vandalizing public property right in front of you? What is your solution?
    5) Is it possible that this young gentleman was in need of a strong role model to tell him what no other adult figure was. You assume poverty is the issue. These are kids without fathers.
    6) Blogger Dad said this. It is probably my favorite comment of the day. Please respond:

    The problem with the victim mentality is that you shortchange the victim by taking away their personal responsibility. You don’t respect them enough to hold them up to the standards of society. You deny them the ability to change or better themselves by telling them that the cards are stacked against them, anyway so why bother? In turn, you continue to ensure that things will never change because you don’t allow it.

    7) This one from Dave Fowler, also verbatim:

    I’ve actually put my life on the line more times than I care to remember. What have YOU done that you feel proud about? Your answer will show the kind of man you really are.

    8) Can you please explain how the vandal is in any way a victim in this scenario.
    9) How do you feel about the broken glass theory of crime?
    10) Are you defending this individual or this behavior? Are you keen to rush to the defense because you've been a bit sticker happy yourself?

    Ten should do it. Thanks in advance for your response.
  • I am going to go out on a limb here and agree with Benjamin on his last point. Keep in mind that I am the person who was touting the role of personal responsibility.

    However, there are times when a person does everything they should, avoids the temptation of consumer debt, puts their family first and they still can't make it. Poverty for them is not merely a mindset that they can get out of if only they get off their asses, it is a cold hard reality which they struggle with daily. All the hope in the world won't help some people. It's just the way it is. And shouldn't those people be helped by someone? If not our government, then who?

    Sometimes there are other circumstances at play, which one cannot overcome. Health crises is an immediate one which comes to mind which I have seen play out in the lives of others. We've all heard the stories or know people who lost everything due to an illness.

    While education would help a majority of impoverished people, the financial system in place in the United States is not designed for the best interest of the people. Their constant campaign of miseducation would be hard to overcome.

    To make matters even more complicated, the media and our government leaders are out telling people that the way out of this and past crises isn't to save our money but to go out and SPEND, SPEND, SPEND, or the economy will be doomed!

    What kind of mixed message is that? Fact is that our economy is built on people buying more than they can afford. The minute people can't or won't buy in excess anymore is the minute things come crashing down around us... unless something is done. (Don't ask me what. Better minds than mine are struggling with those answers.)

    There is a concerted effort by the financial industry to screw people over every chance they get in the name of profit. Banks are charging rates that make some loan sharks look like a bargain! And instead of looking out for our interests, our government caters to lobbyists to make it even easier to screw over the average person.

    But don't take my word for it. Check out the documentary, Maxed Out. You can watch it for free online at Google video. I defy anyone to watch that movie and NOT be pissed off and feel like they aren't getting screwed.

    Blogger Dads last blog post..Eight Questions - Interview with Barbara Swafford of Blogging Without a Blog
  • Been reading these responses, and I think I'd be here all day, back and forth and it's kind of clear my point has not been taken at all.

    But I'd like to take up the point Wendi raised. I totally and utterly disagree, in the strongest way possible that poverty is a mindset. It is completely and utterly insulting to the millions or even billions of people who suffer poverty every day.

    That is a blame the victim mentality. The idea that if you just think differently, aspire to be some rich person, and your thoughts will change the material situations around and remove you from poverty caused by rising prices and low wages among other things, is complete idealism and fantasy.
  • You can't please everybody. I applaude what the way you stood up for your neighborhood Writer Dad.

    Jamess last blog post..Yo, ho ho!
  • The fact that you have taken the time to answer this blogger's point shows the dedication you have to your work. I'm a first time reader I can't help but notice reading some of your previous work. Great work!

    Daniel Allen / The Efficiancy Proposals last blog post..Get On The Right Path To Stopping An Addiction
  • Writer Dad
    Wendi: I'm sorry I missed you. You were thrown in with the spam. I've no idea why since you're as regular as they come. Sorry.

    Your answer is beautiful. Most of us want the same eventuality. Quibbling over the small things is rather silly.

    Al: Also sorry. You too were tossed with the spam. The thought of stickers as gateway vandalism made me laugh. It's a pleasure to make your acquaintance.
  • Writer Dad
    Matthew/Blogger Dad: It's an intelligent, articulate audience to be sure.

    Rita: Nope. Only their actions.

    Harmony: I love reading the new voices; they're wonderful.

    Vered: It's great discussion. I'm impressed and in slight awe of the readers.

    Jamie: I'd love to hear his arguments, but so far they're about as heavy as a bag of Cheetos. I don't think he believes as strongly as he imagines. If he did, his argument might be a bit thicker.

    JR: I'm familiar with it, and I believe Dave Fowler mentioned the same. I will check it out this weekend. Thanks for commenting. I'm glad to hear your voice.

    Bamboo: Best. Argument. Today.
  • I think it's also worth saying, that if you take the victim mentality to its logical extreme - maybe Writer Dad is simply the victim of something in the past.

    After all, "people's behavior doesn't come out of thin air."

    In that case, with this stream of logic - Writer Dad's response to the one defacing the stop sign has nothing at all to do with Writer Dad. It's the result of other factors that are out of his control. Thus, no one should stand up to Writer Dad for calling it how he see's it - as it has nothing to do with him.

    Bamboo Forests last blog post..7 Stage Names That Spell Success
  • Very well presented, Writer Dad.

    "This kid was victim of nothing. He slapped the sticker on the stop sign because no one taught him different. "

    Quite possibly, but not necessarily. People don't always listen to those who strive to direct them. I would argue, they often do - however.

    Defacing property is a big deal. And it is everybody's problem. Everyone shares the neighborhood. Poor, middle class, you name it... No one wants this stuff.

    Bamboo Forests last blog post..7 Stage Names That Spell Success
  • JR
    Hey
    This is my first comment but I am compelled to ask you guys to read Wilson and Kelling's Broken Glass theory of crime. I really think that it would benefit Benjamin to perhaps have a little read and then think about how it would affect his street if people did clean up as Writer dad tried to do?
    JR
  • OK, maybe I have a fourth point after thinking about it.
    Methinks perhaps Mr. Solah is eating up this controversy in an effort to spread his political views. Newsflash: most of us see through that trick.

    But, I am pleased that Benjamin believes strongly in something, that's a step up from many who simply choose the path of least resistance all their lives.

    Jamie Simmermans last blog post..Pick the Brain of Harrison McLeod of Men With Pens
  • I don't have much to add - fascinating discussion and as I said yesterday, I agree with you.
  • HOLY MOLY...Writer Dad. Did you ever get action with this post! Contributors I have never seen before. What is the lesson from this? I am thinking about that, but it does seem controversy gets folks going like nothing else will. :-)

    Harmonys last blog post..Life Happens While We Are Busy Making Plans
  • Writer Dad,
    Hell, you're MY hero. Can I subsribe again? What you did is what you thought you SHOULD do. Can't fault a guy for his beliefs!

    Rita
    PS- Any typos?
  • Kimmelin - GREAT post (here and on your blog)! I just read it and left a comment. For those who don't want to cut and paste, you can click here to see her post.

    And to echo Matthew's (and others') sentiments, this could've devolved into a heated messy argument very quickly. It is a testament to the readers here that the debate has stayed on topic and not turned into back and forth personal attacks.

    Blogger Dads last blog post..Most embarrasing moment EVER
  • Wow, just wow. I'm amazed by the quantity and quality of all these responses.

    Matthew Drydens last blog post..You Might Like Me (But Only As A Friend)
  • Writer Dad
    BENJAMIN: If you are reading, I have not yet asked. What would you have done, if you saw someone vandalizing your property? How about if you were in front of your children, or the children of others, placed in your care? This, I would love to know.

    Jim: I'm impressed, and flattered that Writer Dad's a place where such discussion can occur.

    Dave Fowler: I think we all know that Benji is slaphappy with the stickers, which is why he's so willing to dance with devil on this one. I love your question to Benjamin. It's perfect. I'm proud that you are a part of Writer Dad. Daves make this place richer.

    Ryan: I love to laugh, and haven't done too much on this post or yesterday's. You, however, took me there. Thanks, Ryan.

    Ian: Fantastic argument. I agree that Benjamin provoked a good discussion. I'm glad he left his comments yesterday, because I love what's happened today.

    Kimmelin: Until Utopia, a country's work is never finished. I love what you've said, and though hero makes me uncomfortable, I am quite comfortable in the skin of role model.

    Jamie: 1) Funny and true. Clark never yelled for Lois. 2) There's five to ten years between us, and a decade ago I was not near as dim. 3) If we each did our share, the world would orbit in brilliance.
  • Wow, you stepped in it today, didn't you? (You wanted comments...tada!) ;)
    I have three thoughts:
    1) Super heroes don't yell, "Daisy, I need you." before running off to battle foes. They think brains and brawn can solve any crisis and if you have superpowers, all the better.
    2) I think a big part of the disagreement is a generational thing. I haven't visited Benjamin's site, but I would guess he is more than a wee but younger than Writer Dad. (READ: He's not gonna get it.)
    3) Solving the financial problems of the nation is beyond my scope. Cleaning up my own neighborhood is not. We all do what we can to help better society.

    Rock on Writer Dad

    Jamie Simmermans last blog post..Pick the Brain of Harrison McLeod of Men With Pens
  • To Writer Dad and all readers of this blog;

    A few weeks ago, I wrote a post on my opinion of the cultural state of our country. (http://kimmelin.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/profile-of-america/). The date of the post was September 10, 2008.

    In that post, I accused our society of being so self-righteous in all our overabundant glory that community degradation was just waiting to happen (or continuing to worsen, in certain sectors).

    I can't help but relate my post to WD's situation with the neighborhood sticker slapping bully.

    It is practices like maintaining tolerance and/or turning a blind eye on things like soft vandalism... excusing and allowing it because of attributed poverty or social inequity...while closing ourselves off in our nice, comfortable homes and lives, which plays into the gradual degradation of a society.

    Following the above-indicated post from my own blog, I received several comments from a reader who insisted that there is no need for change or improvement in this country, thank you very much, and that it's only the "have nots" who are doing the complaining, anyway.

    I would put forth to the WD reading community, that in taking the small step to correct a neighborhood kid's show of disrespect--not only for public property, but for an elder who addressed his actions--WD demonstrated that there IS work to be done in bettering this country, if not his own local community. Making change for the better can happen in large or small ways. The important thing is to always be willing to engage in change. (Thus, the quote WD placed at the header of today’s post)

    Think of where this country would be if, say, 200 years ago, 100 years ago, 60 years ago, or even five years ago... we as an American people, decided that all was well within our borders; that no more change was necessary; that no improvements in how we treat one another, how we regulate industry standards, business practices or land usage were necessary. What if EVERYONE turned a blind eye to even the smallest of "problems?" Where would that leave us? I think the answer is obvious.

    I still say, good for you, WD. Perhaps the term "hero" is not altogether appropriate here, but role model certainly is.

    Kimmelins last blog post..Does God Mind Nose Picking During Communion?
  • Ian
    Benjamin Solah wrote:

    “His actions have consequences.”

    Yes, the whole world is going to collapse because of the perils of graffiti.


    Benjamin,

    It is exactly that kind of attitude that is the problem. Blissful ignorance is not the answer to our problems, just as a 700 billion USD bailout is not the answer.

    Your argument was not simplified because it was a poor analogy based on the assumption that the "graffiti teen" is aware of the 700 billion dollar bailout and made the connection between the government condoning inconsequential business behavior and his own inconsequential behavior. A 700 billion bailout does not have anything immediate to do with a behavioral problem in a teen.

    Do you think that teen who is carrying an iPod Touch around while slapping stickers on signs is listening to a daily economic news podcast while doing so? Do you think he understands the impact of the economic bailout? Is it possible that he's not even remotely aware of the financial markets collapsing?

    I suppose it is possible that he is acutely aware of the news and all of the uproar over the proposed economic bailout, but then again, he would probably have better things to do if that were the case. Instead, he's a bored youth with vandalism on the brain.

    Thanks for posting your comments as you've provoked a good discussion. Be well.

    Ian

    Ians last blog post..Market for IPO’s Hit 30-Year-Low
  • I have to say that I'm with you writerdad. You weren't overly cruel or fanatical but you got the point across. Being that it's a neighborhood everyone within should help to keep it clean. While I am not sure that a sticker on a stop sign is horrible, I think if a child is accustomed to acting in such a manner, it would be all to easy to take the next step and actually start performing vandalism. Moral: Stickers are the Gate Way vandalism. :) Though I've done my fair share of 'stickering'.
  • I'm late to the party--my apologies. I'd just like to say though that people who comment here are really civil; I'm really surprised at the level of maturity that I'm seeing. I'm not kidding.

    Of course, I'm totally totally totally not talking about Benjamin. I think he's more like me, and if you caught him on the right day, and he saw a kid vandalizing his property, he'd probably go smack the kid a good one with the broad side of a shovel. And like it. Because, seriously, I would really enjoy that too.

    Unfortunately, both Benjamin and myself are left to wonder the streets of the blogosphere, dropping immature, unfeeling, and more or less random comments wherever we please. Why? Because we honestly don't have anything better to do with our lunch break than sucker-punch our neighbors just for kicks. It's sad. I know. Unfortunately, there are no virtual detention halls or mental asylums in the blogosphere. I mean, there aren't any, right? Cuz if there are, I'm totally there.
  • Writer Dad,

    Your point is well made and is echoed in Fixing Broken Windows. (Although this is just a brief insight)

    CK Lunchbox had it right. Dead right. It’s about respect.

    That lout you challenged showed a lack of respect through his actions and Benjamin has also been incredibly discourteous, firstly in his initial response to your post yesterday and then in his subsequent petulant responses.

    I see little difference between the two of them in this regard.

    As for the lout…. live by the sword, die by the sword. If you want to be a big boy and mix it up with the big boys, accept you’re eventually going to find someone bigger and tougher than you – always. And the fun thing is, this other guy is not always going to play by the rules. Writer Dad didn’t hospitalise this kid, he just told him off – There are plenty others who might have sought physical recourse and THEN got him to clean up the damage. He should think himself lucky it was Writer Dad.

    I don’t think you were playing cop, Writer Dad. I believe you were very much being ‘Dad’, being a citizen and setting a positive example to encourage other to have the courage to follow suit.

    Benjamin, the great thing about the society that you and the sticker lout seem ready to offend, is that it doesn’t take much to be accepted back into that society – just a little respect – it has to come from you first though – you have to earn it.

    Like Writer Dad, I’ve done plenty of things to make me feel proud. Indeed, I’ve actually put my life on the line more times than I care to remember. What have YOU done that you feel proud about?

    Your answer will show the kind of man you really are.

    And for what it’s worth, there’s nothing wrong with playing cop anyway. It’s a noble profession.

    Dave Fowlers last blog post..Why I Want To Feel Hungry
  • You're right, the readers are doing a righteous job.

    By far the best quote I have seen in a while;

    “We are free to make choices. But our choices have consequences, and those are not free.”
  • Writer Dad
    First off, I'd like to say I am SO PROUD of the Writer Dad readers. You guys are awesome. Intelligent debate here, I love it.

    Janine: Every single one of us is responsible for our own behavior. It doesn't matter our economic status, gender, or color. We make our decisions and decide who we want to be. I have the feeling that Benjamin is defending his own behavior, not the kids.

    Steph: Nail = On head. Graffiti must be painted over immediately. Otherwise it's an invitation for more. Small problems grow into larger ones; puppies turn to dogs. For me to stand and do nothing would have been multiplying the wrong.

    Miguel: I believe it has colored Benjamin's thought to the point where he is no longer able to think objectively. Ideology before reason.

    Jim: Thanks. I'm glad you weren't quiet. Vandalism should be checked. The readers are doing a righteous job though, aren't they?

    Chris: I'm not sure that he is capable of seeing the point here, Chris. I hope I'm wrong.

    Hayden: Word.

    Pink Ink: "We are free to make choices. But our choices have consequences, and those are not free."

    I wish I'd said that. Good job.

    Blake: That's the most direct thing anyone's said, and I couldn't agree more. Great comment, and I'm glad to have you.
    Blake.
  • It's obvious to me that Ben probably puts up his own stickers here and there. So he's defending that practice more than anything else.

    Blakes last blog post..Parenting
  • *looks in and sighs*

    We are free to make choices. But our choices have consequences, and those are not free.

    *root of the problem* sounds like a poor excuse for ill behavior regardless of the reason.

    Pink Inks last blog post..Doing the Happy Dance
  • It's about feeling entitled to do whatever you want to whomever you want because no one will hold you accountable.

    I see this as people litter the entrance to my neighborhood everyday. (Mostly teens but some adults.)

    hayden tompkinss last blog post..How to Survive An Economic Depression
  • Hey Benjamin, you got your wish. Now your blog has publicity and you've got everyone engaged.

    I agree with you that we should remove the "root cause" but you also have to understand that wars cannot be won without fighting and winning small battles...

    You said, "Yes, the whole world is going to collapse because of the perils of graffiti."

    Believe it or not, that's how it starts. And if you think I'm talking about graffiti here, then you will never see my point.
  • Oops I meant Writer Dad, but Blogger Dad did the right thing too

    Help me Super - Dad :)

    Miguel de Luiss last blog post..Amorevolezza: 3 Steps to Diamonds of Kindness
  • I had some things to say but what more is there to say. I think this subject has been covered.

    ~ Jim

    IMO (had to say something!) Obviously poverty is more important that graffiti, but vandalism is something that should be checked. So, WD good work teaching the kid a lesson. With luck, he will understand what he is doing is wrong.
  • I really don't know what Marxism has to do with anything. ... ??

    However, Vandalism was an offense in the Soviet Union, and I know of no political system that allows it.

    That said, Blogger dad, I think you did the right thing. The kid might have issues, or not, but that's no excuse.

    Miguel de Luiss last blog post..Amorevolezza: 3 Steps to Diamonds of Kindness
  • You've gotta nip that in the bud, I mean, before it gets bigger.

    stephs last blog post..EditQuest at your Service
  • I hear what Benjamin is saying: remove the cause, whatever it might be, and effect greater change. Normally, I would agree, like getting to the root cause of an illness instead of masking the symptoms.

    But in this case, regardless of cause, whether social, parental, personal, whatever, the fact remains that the dude was doing something with the intention of being malicious. You don't leave that kind of thing to later sort out what might have caused it in the first place, you stop it in its tracks.

    When a kid is doing something undesirable, you don't analyse it first. You tell the kid to stop. You can explain why and you can analyse later, though since this dude was a strange, getting close enough to put him on a couch is unlikely.

    What WD did was effect immediate change. His choice may actually have caused the "perp" to rethink his childish and mindless actions. You may say the sticker is small potatoes, but if the reason behind it is much bigger, the sticker isn't small at all.

    stephs last blog post..EditQuest at your Service
  • I read this quote from Benjamin:
    My two main arguments are that fighting graffiti is small fry compared to fighting some real problems in society like poverty.

    This kid may not be poor, but “anti-social behavior” like this can’t just be simplified down to him being an ignorant brat, or even his upbringing. People’s behaviour doesn’t come out of thin air and there are usually reasons for his behavior.

    Playing cop doesn’t change a thing. If you want lasting change, you have to eliminate what caused the behavior.


    It seems a bit contradictory to me. Poverty, I would argue, is one of those bigger issues that takes a heck of a lot more than one person to quell, and if the whole trajectory of this argument is to attack disrespect where it begins, then aren't the "small problems" perhaps even more fundamental?

    Personally, I get tired of disrespectful behaviour being chalked up to economic or social status, physical appearance, upbringing, etc. We have to do the best with the cards we are dealt. I know many people who have had difficult and what one might consider unfair lives, and yet they are still good human beings. They could have become rebellious jerk-offs and blamed it on that abusive father or having to live in a trailer for three years with no electricity, but instead they chose to be genuine people with strong values. In the same respect, I have met horrible, wretched human beings who have had everything in life handed to them on a silver platter.

    At the core, I believe it's a person's choice who they come to be, what they represent, how they act in society. To constantly make excuses for that takes agency away from the individual and makes us seem like passive beasts who have our futures designed for us by the conditions of our lives. I can't speak for anyone else, but I definitely like to think that I am the driving force of my own life, and that I am responsible to myself for the choices that I make. Even if I've had as bad a life as they come, if I'm presented with the opportunity to do something ethically wrong to get ahead or to prove a point, in the end, does it not come down to individual choice? If it didn't, as an extreme example, I could go on a killing spree and say I couldn't help it...because I live in a poor city, I feel alone, I don't know how to socialize with others, etc. Does that really make immoral behaviour excusable?

    Janines last blog post..Word on the Street.
  • Benjamin,
    Our community is respectful so I doubt you will have a run on your blog, I for one am not inclined to even click and I applaud your right to have a differing viewpoint.

    You seem to be concerned about the great and very important cause of poverty which affects us all. Rightly so. My thoughts on poverty are this. Poverty begins as a mindset, a belief system that feels that success can not be achieved through whatever means are available. It is a social disease of apathy, ignorance, depression, and a lack of self and social respect. It will never be cured from the top down by giving hand outs or raining down cash or bail outs. It must be cured from the bottom up, by teaching self respect, education, hope, and belief in oneself to achieve dreams and goals and financial responsibility.

    So does it really matter when one troubled or bored youth shows a lack of self discipline, social and self respect and a disregard for community? YES. True change will happen one person at a time.

    I believe we all want the same end result. A world filled with love, peace and prosperity where no man, woman, or child is discriminated against or left behind to suffer or starve. Why argue on these small details of how to get the job done?

    Wendi Kelly-Life's Little Inspirationss last blog post..Tealights and Time
  • Writer Dad
    Benjamin: Fighting vandalism is small fry compared to fighting poverty, but you still fight a your cold, even when you have cancer.
    This is my neighborhood. I see these kids all the time. He is an overindulged, oversized bully, who is used to getting his way and not being challenged. You keep saying I played cop, I didn't. I played Daddy, which is exactly what that kid needs. Whether you realize it or not, people need boundaries. That kid is still deciding who he's going to be. There was a lesson taught, and many saw. This is important, and it does elevate a community. You are allowing your ideology to shape your view on something that is clearly wrong. Standing up for your basic rights is something that even Karl Marx would have applauded.

    You say your argument is simplified, yet you are the one saying things like this:

    "Yes, the whole world is going to collapse because of the perils of graffiti."

    That was in response to Blogger Dad's comment:

    "His actions have consequences."

    Seems simplified to me. Again (I feel like I'm talking to a toddler), it isn't about graffiti, it's about personal responsibility. When I was a kid, we were on welfare, but we pulled ourselves out of it by having personal responsibility. You behave with arrogance when you believe that being poor is an excuse for not owning your actions.

    CK Lunchbox: Where I live, there is a lack of respect in both the affluent neighborhoods as well as our own. I think it has far more to do with our culture than our economy. You are always welcome to interject your opinions. Every time I see your name, I picture your site and all the awesome Fleischer images. It always makes me smile.

    Ula: You're absolutely right. Boundaries make all the difference.

    Lance: That, I will. Thanks.

    Kool Aid: Your perspective is dead on. Benjamin is defending the vandal because his political perspective places him always on the side of the underdog, or working class. What he is failing to realize, is that I am the working class. I work sixty hours a week teaching children, buy almost nothing non essential, and am happy when my mortgage is paid three days before it is due. Most of these kids, live in subsidized housing and get assistance for all their needs.

    Julie: Exactly. Just because I asked the vandal to be accountable, doesn't mean I don't care about poverty.

    Blogger Dad: What can I say? You've articulated yourself beautifully. I think, better than I. You've said some amazing things here. This, my favorite:

    "The problem with the victim mentality is that you shortchange the victim by taking away their personal responsibility. You don’t respect them enough to hold them up to the standards of society. You deny them the ability to change or better themselves by telling them that the cards are stacked against them, anyway so why bother? In turn, you continue to ensure that things will never change because you don’t allow it."

    I'm so glad we met.
  • Benjamin - Either you are missing my point or trolling for attention. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and further try to explain my point.

    All too often things continue only because nobody stands up to them. This can be something on a small scale such as what is happening in Writer Dad's neighborhood or as large scale as corrupt political systems. When there is resistance, it causes one to step back and consider their actions.

    Sometimes in that reflection, they will seek only to continue their ways, to prop themselves up and justify their ideas and actions. Other times, they will consider other points of view, and ... change their minds and their actions.

    The problem with the victim mentality is that you shortchange the victim by taking away their personal responsibility. You don't respect them enough to hold them up to the standards of society. You deny them the ability to change or better themselves by telling them that the cards are stacked against them, anyway so why bother? In turn, you continue to ensure that things will never change because you don't allow it.

    The funny thing is, those who oppress others rely on the victim mentality to continue the cycle and ensure that everyone maintains their roles - victims and oppressors.

    Blogger Dads last blog post..Most embarrasing moment EVER
  • Oops, sorry. ...or attack them, either, Benjamin for doing what we've agreed as a society is right.

    Julies last blog post..Somewhere On The Circle
  • Graffiti is no less important an issue than poverty, because it's on the same unacceptable side of personal and social morals. Once we make allowances for things we've decided as a community aren't acceptable behaviors, we're all headed for trouble. The consensus is Writer Dad took a stance to defend what we have agreed is a public disservice and we all applaud him. If Benjamin wants make his stance with poverty, great. We each could take a stance on something different, but that doesn't mean we should be blind to others' banner waving on other fronts.

    Julies last blog post..Somewhere On The Circle
  • Writer Dad, I think you absolutely did the right thing. I'm not quite sure why Benjamin seems to be defending the vandal. Maybe I'm misreading the meanings behind his comments, but vandalism is vandalism, no matter who's doing it or why. It doesn't matter if the vandal is spoiled, has a low income or bad parents or no parental guidance, although he did mention his grandma, he's still being a vandal.

    Yes, there are reasons for his behavior, but that doesn't excuse his behavior. My guess is this kid has never had anyone call him on his actions. Writer Dad did. Maybe it's the first step in causing that kid to reconsider what he's going to do with his time. Maybe not. Maybe nothing will change and he'll just go to a different stop sign. Either way, Writer Dad's pebble has made ripples in the pond. It's not a big pebble he threw out there, but because people saw what he did, there will be ripples. The question now becomes are they big ripples or little ones? Will others see WD's actions and ignore them or, hopefully, will they start to reconsider the apathy in their own lives and encourage change. One person's action can and often does make a difference.

    I think CK has it right. It all comes down to a matter of respect. Respecting property, respecting others, respecting ideas. This is a great debate and one that I'm sure will go on and on.

    Ripples...

    Kool Aids last blog post..Question of the day
  • I can only say, Writer Dad, that you did the right thing. It was a small thing (a sticker) - but it's the whole idea behind it. That of showing no respect for others or property.

    Keep fighting the good fight...

    Lances last blog post..Winds of Change
  • I live in Berlin, where we have similar problems.
    I think that one the one hand, disrespectful behaviour of kids has its social origins. But - though it might be explained by society having failed in some ways, it cannot be tolerated. And I've sometimes the impression, that kids are waiting for adults setting borders for them, telling them what to do, giving them structures.
    Just my 2cents,
    Ulla

    Ulla Hennigs last blog post..Silence and Peace
  • I'm not sure if it's failing economy, the governmental ineptitude or solar flares, but this is the third polarized discussion on the blogosphere today.

    And, although, I don't think anyone needs me to interject my opinions on where I personally stand on the matter, I will say the theme of respect is very clear from both sides.

    Whether it's a sticker or a blog comment respect is essential in how we interact with others. What I can respect with regard to this discussion is that both sides are willing to defend a point of view they believe in.

    Who's right or wrong is now a matter of ethics and values. A breakdown in these and respect for others goes out the window. That said, is poverty the more serious problem or is the defacing of property a symptom in that it's a lack of self respect from living in poverty? Do you focus on one or the other or both at the same time?

    Point being, in a way you're both right.

    CK Lunchboxs last blog post..Oh (No) Canada!
  • "His actions have consequences."

    Yes, the whole world is going to collapse because of the perils of graffiti.
  • Benjamin - Why judge Writer Dad for taking a stand by doing something which he believes will help his neighborhood? While one could argue that Writer Dad should be tending to some greater social evil, who are we to say what he should be doing with HIS time on this planet? How do we know he's not already doing something for mankind's greater good? He IS a teacher who works with children. Perhaps that is where he is best able to "make a difference". Maybe it's writing things.

    Does that mean he should simply sit by and watch while someone defaces his community?

    This victim mentality that the poor kid was acting out for some "reason" holds no water. He is still responsible for his own actions. You can trace the roots of most bad behavior to various sources. But the sad fact is, sometimes people just do things because they can. Maybe they think it's funny, maybe they think it doesn't matter, maybe they like destroying other people's stuff out of some sense of entitlement and misplaced anger at society which they blame for their crappy lives. I've seen my fair share of this mentality from rich and poor kids alike.

    Perhaps this kid's actions could be traced to not having a strong adult role model. Perhaps Writer Dad's stopping him was just the sort of thing this kid needed to "Wake up" and realize that his actions have consequences, that the world is something greater than his personal playground.

    Blogger Dads last blog post..Eight Questions - Interview with Barbara Swafford of Blogging Without a Blog
  • I don't think he met the parents or guardians of this kid.

    I think the answer really does come down to his upbringing. I doubt he was slapping a sticker on the sign to get attention, as it would have be counter-productive to his attempt to avoid being caught.

    Some kids just do stuff because they're bored and something went wrong with the way they were raised. Doesn't mean they need to deface public property.

    (Sorry for the double-post.)

    Matthew Drydens last blog post..You Might Like Me (But Only As A Friend)
  • @ Matthew: I don't think Writer Dad is attacking me. Marxists love debate. We don't take it personal, even if our language can often be snarky and I'm one to wear my heart on my sleave. It's just in the past, readers have taken it to dive in and attack me in very simplistic ways.
  • @Writer Dad: Agreed.

    @Benjamin: I don't imagine any of the readers here would come slap a proverbial postal-sticker on your header. I don't think this is a direct attack on you, he's just making a point about the kid's attitude and morals.

    Matthew Drydens last blog post..You Might Like Me (But Only As A Friend)
  • Thanks, I don't mind the publicity. My blog could use it. But as you might understand, Marxism is not a popular movement at the moment and all too often people can think I'm some supporter of Stalinism or Cuba, or dictatorships that I actually don't think are socialist.

    It was your response that simplified my argument down. My two main arguments are that fighting graffiti is small fry compared to fighting some real problems in society like poverty.

    This kid may not be poor, but "anti-social behavior" like this can't just be simplified down to him being an ignorant brat, or even his upbringing. People's behaviour doesn't come out of thin air and there are usually reasons for his behavior.

    Playing cop doesn't change a thing. If you want lasting change, you have to eliminate what caused the behavior.
  • Writer Dad
    Matthew: He is a spoiled brat, and it has nothing to do with the economy.

    Benjamin: Your blog is your home in the blogoshpere. I'm sure that others will respect it. I don't see how I could have possibly simplified your argument. I used your words verbatim.
  • *waits for hoardes of Writer Dad groupies to attack his site for being a crazy commo*

    I usually keep my mouth shut because you've so obviously simplified my argument down.
  • I visited his site yesterday because his comment caught my attention right away. We exchanged a couple of emails. He knew he wouldn't be making friends from that comment.

    I told him at very least, it would be the cause of a good discussion.

    I don't see the connection between world/country economy and and kids making a mess of their city. We're slowly becoming a worldwide community, but that doesn't mean we can't focus on our children's morals and bad habits because their are "bigger" issues out there.

    The iPod Touch is a testament that this kid is most likely a spoiled brat with no real manners or sense of pride in or for his community.

    Matthew Drydens last blog post..You Might Like Me (But Only As A Friend)
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