“I must do something” always solves more problems than “Something must be done.”
~Author Unknown
When I published yesterday’s post, I expected two basic reactions: Good for you or You should be more careful.
I did not expect this:
You played cop over a sticker, lol. Bet you think you’re some hero now.
*unsubscribes*
That comment was beautifully articulated by Benjamin Solah, or Benjamin SoLONG as Kimmelin referred to him two dozen high fives later.
My response:
Benjamin: With a wide web between us, I’m unable to properly measure your sarcasm, so I’ll take your question straight.
No, I don’t think I’m a hero. I saved no one, and was considering my needs during the entire confrontation. Such are not the actions of a hero. I do all I can to make my neighborhood safe and friendly. The gaggle of hoods who stroll our streets, intimidating others and destroying property, are able to do so because no one is willing to stand up to them. They are not plastering a political message, or working toward change. They are simply being destructive, making the neighborhood feel unsafe, and wasting the time of others. The story wasn’t about a sticker. It was about a disrespectful bully. This is clearly written. I imagine you must have your own issues with authority to respond as you did.
Yesterday’s comment wasn’t Benjamin’s first. When someone takes the time to comment on Writer Dad, I do my best to stop by their site. So I already knew Benjamin was a “Marxist revolutionary with a passion for writing fiction which shines a mirror on capitalism to reflect its innate horror.”
Obviously I’m not convincing Benji of anything.
A few hours later, Benjamin dropped another comment.
Writer Dad, I’m know I’m gonna cause a fuss, but I actually disagree with what you did. It’s a sticker, get over it. Do you really think you’re such a hero for making a kid peel a sticker off a stop sign? Does it matter at all?
No (again), I do not consider myself a hero, and yes it matters:
Benjamin: I understand your perspective, but it isn’t JUST a sticker. It’s pandemic. I live in a ghetto where public and private property are defaced daily. Stop signs get postal labels slapped on them, obscenities follow. The labels take half an hour to scrape off. My half hour, that I don’t have. If I don’t scrape the labels, they multiply. Exactly like graffiti. We paint over that immediately as well. You don’t have to agree, but I corrected a neighborhood bully while he was disrespecting community property in front of our preschool where we endeavor to teach our little ones respect. I did so with control and manners. Observing vandalism, and doing nothing, is apathy. That’s not me.
I’m not a Marxist, so perhaps the logic’s lost on me. Benjamin tried to help me understand:
Sorry, I still think it’s all relative. Why is he sticking that sticker there? Why has he got nothing better to than to graffiti (aside from the fact some people actually find graffiti beautiful, as opposed to neat and perfect coz it looks unlived and inhuman IMO) but you said you live in a ghetto. So isn’t poverty more of an issue?
I’ve lived in areas where graffiti is rife, but it never bothered me, because the things around it were so much worse. I think when you look at businesses on the verge of being bailed out to the tune of $700 Billion, this poor kid gets ignored and the only way he gets noticed is to slap a sticker on a stop sign.
Many of you are probably wondering what Benjamin did to deserve this dedication. Nothing. It’s not about him. He just happened to be the voice of ignorance (no offense, Benjamin. Failed political infrastructure will do that).
This kid was victim of nothing. He slapped the sticker on the stop sign because no one taught him different. He’s one of the miscreants who meander around, mutilating their morals. They do not create art or anything else. Their graffiti is a sequence of barely legible letters, awkwardly scrawled onto the sidewalk (or the walls, windows, car doors, or anything they can get away with) in sharpie.
Poverty isn’t the issue, it’s respect. The kid was wearing an ipod, as do most of the kids in my neighborhood. I’ve got a shuffle, his was a touch, but at least I have manners.
I don’t understand people who, regardless of the facts, assume aggressor as victim, and hand out excuses like candy.
Benjamin, a $700 Billion dollar bailout has nothing to do with the fact that Mr. Mini-Thug needed to learn a lesson in simple human decency. He tried to look cool, and got faced instead. He accepted his consequence. Why can’t you?
Writer Dad
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About Sean Platt
Been reading these responses, and I think I’d be here all day, back and forth and it’s kind of clear my point has not been taken at all.
But I’d like to take up the point Wendi raised. I totally and utterly disagree, in the strongest way possible that poverty is a mindset. It is completely and utterly insulting to the millions or even billions of people who suffer poverty every day.
That is a blame the victim mentality. The idea that if you just think differently, aspire to be some rich person, and your thoughts will change the material situations around and remove you from poverty caused by rising prices and low wages among other things, is complete idealism and fantasy.
Been reading these responses, and I think I’d be here all day, back and forth and it’s kind of clear my point has not been taken at all.
But I’d like to take up the point Wendi raised. I totally and utterly disagree, in the strongest way possible that poverty is a mindset. It is completely and utterly insulting to the millions or even billions of people who suffer poverty every day.
That is a blame the victim mentality. The idea that if you just think differently, aspire to be some rich person, and your thoughts will change the material situations around and remove you from poverty caused by rising prices and low wages among other things, is complete idealism and fantasy.
I am going to go out on a limb here and agree with Benjamin on his last point. Keep in mind that I am the person who was touting the role of personal responsibility.
However, there are times when a person does everything they should, avoids the temptation of consumer debt, puts their family first and they still can’t make it. Poverty for them is not merely a mindset that they can get out of if only they get off their asses, it is a cold hard reality which they struggle with daily. All the hope in the world won’t help some people. It’s just the way it is. And shouldn’t those people be helped by someone? If not our government, then who?
Sometimes there are other circumstances at play, which one cannot overcome. Health crises is an immediate one which comes to mind which I have seen play out in the lives of others. We’ve all heard the stories or know people who lost everything due to an illness.
While education would help a majority of impoverished people, the financial system in place in the United States is not designed for the best interest of the people. Their constant campaign of miseducation would be hard to overcome.
To make matters even more complicated, the media and our government leaders are out telling people that the way out of this and past crises isn’t to save our money but to go out and SPEND, SPEND, SPEND, or the economy will be doomed!
What kind of mixed message is that? Fact is that our economy is built on people buying more than they can afford. The minute people can’t or won’t buy in excess anymore is the minute things come crashing down around us… unless something is done. (Don’t ask me what. Better minds than mine are struggling with those answers.)
There is a concerted effort by the financial industry to screw people over every chance they get in the name of profit. Banks are charging rates that make some loan sharks look like a bargain! And instead of looking out for our interests, our government caters to lobbyists to make it even easier to screw over the average person.
But don’t take my word for it. Check out the documentary, Maxed Out. You can watch it for free online at Google video. I defy anyone to watch that movie and NOT be pissed off and feel like they aren’t getting screwed.
Blogger Dads last blog post..Eight Questions – Interview with Barbara Swafford of Blogging Without a Blog
I am going to go out on a limb here and agree with Benjamin on his last point. Keep in mind that I am the person who was touting the role of personal responsibility.
However, there are times when a person does everything they should, avoids the temptation of consumer debt, puts their family first and they still can’t make it. Poverty for them is not merely a mindset that they can get out of if only they get off their asses, it is a cold hard reality which they struggle with daily. All the hope in the world won’t help some people. It’s just the way it is. And shouldn’t those people be helped by someone? If not our government, then who?
Sometimes there are other circumstances at play, which one cannot overcome. Health crises is an immediate one which comes to mind which I have seen play out in the lives of others. We’ve all heard the stories or know people who lost everything due to an illness.
While education would help a majority of impoverished people, the financial system in place in the United States is not designed for the best interest of the people. Their constant campaign of miseducation would be hard to overcome.
To make matters even more complicated, the media and our government leaders are out telling people that the way out of this and past crises isn’t to save our money but to go out and SPEND, SPEND, SPEND, or the economy will be doomed!
What kind of mixed message is that? Fact is that our economy is built on people buying more than they can afford. The minute people can’t or won’t buy in excess anymore is the minute things come crashing down around us… unless something is done. (Don’t ask me what. Better minds than mine are struggling with those answers.)
There is a concerted effort by the financial industry to screw people over every chance they get in the name of profit. Banks are charging rates that make some loan sharks look like a bargain! And instead of looking out for our interests, our government caters to lobbyists to make it even easier to screw over the average person.
But don’t take my word for it. Check out the documentary, Maxed Out. You can watch it for free online at Google video. I defy anyone to watch that movie and NOT be pissed off and feel like they aren’t getting screwed.
Blogger Dads last blog post..Eight Questions – Interview with Barbara Swafford of Blogging Without a Blog
Daniel: Thanks. It always means a lot when a new reader looks behind. I’m glad to have you and hope to read your words again.
James: I would never try to please everybody, just everybody behind my fence. Thanks for the applause.
Blogger Dad: I agree with everything you just said.
Benjamin: It doesn’t really surprise me that after fifty comments saying beautifully articulated, reasonable variations of the same thing, you would think that all of them were missing your point. Perhaps you should sharpen your words into a finer point. You haven’t answered a single direct question that has yet been asked.
I agree with you about Wendi’s comment. However, allow me to clarify what I believe she is saying (Wendi, if I may).
Wendi is not referring to worldwide problems of poverty. She is referring to the poverty here, in our country. The people who live in my neighborhood have every opportunity to change their circumstances. Many of them buy things they do not need, and drive cars they cannot afford. There are also many hardworking families, who are frugal and friendly. They are poor, because they came to this country to seek a better life. Their children will be better; their children’s children better still. It may not be perfect, but America is the land of opportunity. That’s why they came here. It’s why my grandparents came here.
Life is filled with roadblocks, and sure opportunity isn’t the same for everyone. Far from it. But what you are saying is ridiculous.
You insulted the audience yesterday when you made the presumption that they would attack you on your site. It makes sense you would think this, seeing as how you are the one without regard for the property of others. If you would like to make it up to them, perhaps you could answer a few of their earlier questions. I’ve saved you the trouble of gathering.
1) Is it possible that you could be wrong, and that this kid heard the message?
2) Is it possible that someone watching from the shadows was inspired to stand up for their own property the next time it’s defiled?
3) Is it possible that a child watching from another corner, not yet old enough to have chosen which crowd to hang with, learned to see things differently?
4) What would you, Benjamin, have done while running a preschool and someone is vandalizing public property right in front of you? What is your solution?
5) Is it possible that this young gentleman was in need of a strong role model to tell him what no other adult figure was. You assume poverty is the issue. These are kids without fathers.
6) Blogger Dad said this. It is probably my favorite comment of the day. Please respond:
The problem with the victim mentality is that you shortchange the victim by taking away their personal responsibility. You don’t respect them enough to hold them up to the standards of society. You deny them the ability to change or better themselves by telling them that the cards are stacked against them, anyway so why bother? In turn, you continue to ensure that things will never change because you don’t allow it.
7) This one from Dave Fowler, also verbatim:
I’ve actually put my life on the line more times than I care to remember. What have YOU done that you feel proud about? Your answer will show the kind of man you really are.
8) Can you please explain how the vandal is in any way a victim in this scenario.
9) How do you feel about the broken glass theory of crime?
10) Are you defending this individual or this behavior? Are you keen to rush to the defense because you’ve been a bit sticker happy yourself?
Ten should do it. Thanks in advance for your response.
Daniel: Thanks. It always means a lot when a new reader looks behind. I’m glad to have you and hope to read your words again.
James: I would never try to please everybody, just everybody behind my fence. Thanks for the applause.
Blogger Dad: I agree with everything you just said.
Benjamin: It doesn’t really surprise me that after fifty comments saying beautifully articulated, reasonable variations of the same thing, you would think that all of them were missing your point. Perhaps you should sharpen your words into a finer point. You haven’t answered a single direct question that has yet been asked.
I agree with you about Wendi’s comment. However, allow me to clarify what I believe she is saying (Wendi, if I may).
Wendi is not referring to worldwide problems of poverty. She is referring to the poverty here, in our country. The people who live in my neighborhood have every opportunity to change their circumstances. Many of them buy things they do not need, and drive cars they cannot afford. There are also many hardworking families, who are frugal and friendly. They are poor, because they came to this country to seek a better life. Their children will be better; their children’s children better still. It may not be perfect, but America is the land of opportunity. That’s why they came here. It’s why my grandparents came here.
Life is filled with roadblocks, and sure opportunity isn’t the same for everyone. Far from it. But what you are saying is ridiculous.
You insulted the audience yesterday when you made the presumption that they would attack you on your site. It makes sense you would think this, seeing as how you are the one without regard for the property of others. If you would like to make it up to them, perhaps you could answer a few of their earlier questions. I’ve saved you the trouble of gathering.
1) Is it possible that you could be wrong, and that this kid heard the message?
2) Is it possible that someone watching from the shadows was inspired to stand up for their own property the next time it’s defiled?
3) Is it possible that a child watching from another corner, not yet old enough to have chosen which crowd to hang with, learned to see things differently?
4) What would you, Benjamin, have done while running a preschool and someone is vandalizing public property right in front of you? What is your solution?
5) Is it possible that this young gentleman was in need of a strong role model to tell him what no other adult figure was. You assume poverty is the issue. These are kids without fathers.
6) Blogger Dad said this. It is probably my favorite comment of the day. Please respond:
The problem with the victim mentality is that you shortchange the victim by taking away their personal responsibility. You don’t respect them enough to hold them up to the standards of society. You deny them the ability to change or better themselves by telling them that the cards are stacked against them, anyway so why bother? In turn, you continue to ensure that things will never change because you don’t allow it.
7) This one from Dave Fowler, also verbatim:
I’ve actually put my life on the line more times than I care to remember. What have YOU done that you feel proud about? Your answer will show the kind of man you really are.
8) Can you please explain how the vandal is in any way a victim in this scenario.
9) How do you feel about the broken glass theory of crime?
10) Are you defending this individual or this behavior? Are you keen to rush to the defense because you’ve been a bit sticker happy yourself?
Ten should do it. Thanks in advance for your response.
Quite an interesting discussion going on here…
I have to confess, when I first read the story of Writer Dad confronting the vandal, I did think “Geez, it was just a sticker.” But then I realized that Writer Dad was protecting his property, his neighborhood, and the kids for whome he is responsible. Graffiti is both a nuisance and an art, depending on who you are and what you see when you look at it.
Benjamin makes a good point, however, in bringing up the bailout. Our government is willing to issue $700 billion to save a few companies and rescue people’s savings and investments, people who have extra money (obviously, if it’s invested, they’re not living month to month). Meanwhile, that same government does very little to rescue or bail out people who have nothing at all, people who live in ghettos or suffer from poverty.
Writer Dad and Benjamin are both right in what they’ve said and done. I personally would applaud them both. Now, let’s all shake hands, and hey, don’t forget to vote!
Melissa Donovans last blog post..October News and Announcements
Quite an interesting discussion going on here…
I have to confess, when I first read the story of Writer Dad confronting the vandal, I did think “Geez, it was just a sticker.” But then I realized that Writer Dad was protecting his property, his neighborhood, and the kids for whome he is responsible. Graffiti is both a nuisance and an art, depending on who you are and what you see when you look at it.
Benjamin makes a good point, however, in bringing up the bailout. Our government is willing to issue $700 billion to save a few companies and rescue people’s savings and investments, people who have extra money (obviously, if it’s invested, they’re not living month to month). Meanwhile, that same government does very little to rescue or bail out people who have nothing at all, people who live in ghettos or suffer from poverty.
Writer Dad and Benjamin are both right in what they’ve said and done. I personally would applaud them both. Now, let’s all shake hands, and hey, don’t forget to vote!
Melissa Donovans last blog post..October News and Announcements
EEK! Typo in my last comment. I hate that. Really hate it. “Whome,” of course, should read, “whom.”
Grr.
Melissa Donovans last blog post..October News and Announcements
EEK! Typo in my last comment. I hate that. Really hate it. “Whome,” of course, should read, “whom.”
Grr.
Melissa Donovans last blog post..October News and Announcements
Maybe 50 people missed my point, or just disagree. I know baulking on answering all those question will take you to think I’m backing down, but honestly, I’m doing this from work and am off to the country with my girlfriend for three days, might even get some writing done.
Good to see Blogger Dad and Melissa could take my points on the bail out and poverty. There is an inequality in society, between the rich and the poor and it’s systematic. I think your point that “America is the land of opportunity” highlights our disagreement. I’d say America, and indeed Australia and other Western Countries show this massive divide between rich and poor. Our countries have people who work increasingly longer hours, for smaller wages. When was the last time the minimum wage was raised?
You may think that the economy has nothing to do with what this kid did, even if he was rich or poor, but you can’t just look at each person individually and tell them to stop it or you’d be losing an uphill battle.
Oh, and yeah, I have stuck stickers up. Not just randomly, though. There were about 20,000 stickers printed with the words “Stop Bush!” and protest details, last year, before Bush came to Sydney. I proudly played a key role in stickering the whole of Sydney that brought 20,000 people out to protest War, Racism and Poverty of Bush and Co.
So, I had been thinking why did I bother disagreeing? I knew I was gonna open a can of worms and be in a minority. It’s happened before. (and I wasn’t disrespecting your audience, it’s just I’ve been attacked before.) But I often sticker and poster about protests and political events, and busy-bodies stick their nose in and tell us we’re vandalizing. Think of all the political movements that have won so much change around the world, and I bet you there were a dozen kids sticking posters up to tell people about those movements.
Maybe it’s a long shot comparing this kid’s stickering to our postering, but if this kid can’t do it, neither can we.
Maybe 50 people missed my point, or just disagree. I know baulking on answering all those question will take you to think I’m backing down, but honestly, I’m doing this from work and am off to the country with my girlfriend for three days, might even get some writing done.
Good to see Blogger Dad and Melissa could take my points on the bail out and poverty. There is an inequality in society, between the rich and the poor and it’s systematic. I think your point that “America is the land of opportunity” highlights our disagreement. I’d say America, and indeed Australia and other Western Countries show this massive divide between rich and poor. Our countries have people who work increasingly longer hours, for smaller wages. When was the last time the minimum wage was raised?
You may think that the economy has nothing to do with what this kid did, even if he was rich or poor, but you can’t just look at each person individually and tell them to stop it or you’d be losing an uphill battle.
Oh, and yeah, I have stuck stickers up. Not just randomly, though. There were about 20,000 stickers printed with the words “Stop Bush!” and protest details, last year, before Bush came to Sydney. I proudly played a key role in stickering the whole of Sydney that brought 20,000 people out to protest War, Racism and Poverty of Bush and Co.
So, I had been thinking why did I bother disagreeing? I knew I was gonna open a can of worms and be in a minority. It’s happened before. (and I wasn’t disrespecting your audience, it’s just I’ve been attacked before.) But I often sticker and poster about protests and political events, and busy-bodies stick their nose in and tell us we’re vandalizing. Think of all the political movements that have won so much change around the world, and I bet you there were a dozen kids sticking posters up to tell people about those movements.
Maybe it’s a long shot comparing this kid’s stickering to our postering, but if this kid can’t do it, neither can we.
Melissa – According to supporters of the bailout, it is necessary to not only protect the CEO’s, but also everyday people.
Here’s my attempt to explain the situation as I understand it. If anyone spots an error, feel free to correct me. While I’ve covered some financial issues in my capacity as a newspaper reporter, it was not my primary beat, so some of this stuff is beyond the scope of my knowledge.
The theory is that the bailout is needed to put money into the financial system. Right now everything is grinding to a halt due to a tightening credit market, which is mostly due to the HUGE housing crises and subprime mortgage mess. (That would take a whole page to explain).
So, the theory is that without money, the markets will tank.
Now, here is why that matters to YOU.
If the market crashes, then there is a domino effect. For instance, your state and local government likely have investments tied up in some of these companies. Those investments provide revenue. If that revenue is lost, the money comes from where? Well, it could come in the form of cuts to local government – teachers, firefighters, police.
Where I live, in Florida, the state is facing the unintended consequences of voting for a mandatory tax decrease last year. Of course, people voted for a budget cut, because the average person feels that the government wastes money. While this is true in many areas, there are some cities and counties who do spend responsibly. However, they too will suffer now. While the average Floridian might save somewhere between $100 and $400 a year on their property taxes depending where they live, lawmakers were forced to make massive budget cuts. And while yeah, some pork will be cut, in some areas, those cuts will dig deep into vital tissue.
Several teachers have lost their jobs, school programs have been cut, police and fire have either cut positions or frozen them to make up for the budget cuts. And projects which were once budgeted such as road improvements and other infrastructure which NEEDS to be maintained will be put on hold.
Now that they are seeing the unintended consequences of their vote, many of the people who supported the tax cuts now regret their decision as it has come to affect them adversely.
The other bailout issue is that it will help free up credit that companies lend one another. When credit lines freeze up, employers can’t pay their payroll, can’t pay their expenses, they have to cut positions or close up.
I hope I’ve helped to give some clarity to a complex issue.
Blogger Dads last blog post..Eight Questions – Interview with Barbara Swafford of Blogging Without a Blog
Melissa – According to supporters of the bailout, it is necessary to not only protect the CEO’s, but also everyday people.
Here’s my attempt to explain the situation as I understand it. If anyone spots an error, feel free to correct me. While I’ve covered some financial issues in my capacity as a newspaper reporter, it was not my primary beat, so some of this stuff is beyond the scope of my knowledge.
The theory is that the bailout is needed to put money into the financial system. Right now everything is grinding to a halt due to a tightening credit market, which is mostly due to the HUGE housing crises and subprime mortgage mess. (That would take a whole page to explain).
So, the theory is that without money, the markets will tank.
Now, here is why that matters to YOU.
If the market crashes, then there is a domino effect. For instance, your state and local government likely have investments tied up in some of these companies. Those investments provide revenue. If that revenue is lost, the money comes from where? Well, it could come in the form of cuts to local government – teachers, firefighters, police.
Where I live, in Florida, the state is facing the unintended consequences of voting for a mandatory tax decrease last year. Of course, people voted for a budget cut, because the average person feels that the government wastes money. While this is true in many areas, there are some cities and counties who do spend responsibly. However, they too will suffer now. While the average Floridian might save somewhere between $100 and $400 a year on their property taxes depending where they live, lawmakers were forced to make massive budget cuts. And while yeah, some pork will be cut, in some areas, those cuts will dig deep into vital tissue.
Several teachers have lost their jobs, school programs have been cut, police and fire have either cut positions or frozen them to make up for the budget cuts. And projects which were once budgeted such as road improvements and other infrastructure which NEEDS to be maintained will be put on hold.
Now that they are seeing the unintended consequences of their vote, many of the people who supported the tax cuts now regret their decision as it has come to affect them adversely.
The other bailout issue is that it will help free up credit that companies lend one another. When credit lines freeze up, employers can’t pay their payroll, can’t pay their expenses, they have to cut positions or close up.
I hope I’ve helped to give some clarity to a complex issue.
Blogger Dads last blog post..Eight Questions – Interview with Barbara Swafford of Blogging Without a Blog
Hey Writer Dad,
I love a good conversation like this ;) Yes, I understand that the bailout is needed to help many (not just a few) and I also realize that failing to pass the bailout would have dire consequences through the domino effect that you’ve mentioned.
What’s bothering me about it is that there are other problems in our society that have a domino effect, which the government (particularly the current administration) takes no initiative to resolve. Poverty is one such problem. I shudder when I think about how Hurricane Katrina’s victims were ignored for days. Reporters could get in, but not the government? It was a travesty.
There are a lot of different perspectives on this bailout and on the economy at large. I am not claiming to have a specific position on it (I don’t know enough to really take such a position). What I do know is that most people living in the ghetto don’t even know that there’s a way to get out. Many inner city kids believe they will die before they turn 20. They sell drugs not because the money’s good (it’s not — in fact it’s often lower than minimum wage) but because there are no jobs in their communities. They attend schools that are overcrowded and run-down, that don’t have adequate books and equipment. Their morale is shot to hell. A lot of them live in single-parent homes with a parent who is never around or who is just as ignorant about opportunity and potential.
Who is to blame for this epidemic of poverty in our nation? Who is responsible for fixing it? How do you tell millions of depraved, impoverished people that they can do more with their lives?
My point is that we are willing to do this bailout but so unwilling to put taxpayer money to other good causes. Ending poverty, particularly here in the U.S. should be a high priority. Believe me, I do NOT support free handouts, but there are people who could benefit greatly from just a little help, a little inspiration, and some good old-fashioned education.
Confucius said, “In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of.” I tend to agree with him.
Melissa Donovans last blog post..October News and Announcements
Hey Writer Dad,
I love a good conversation like this ;) Yes, I understand that the bailout is needed to help many (not just a few) and I also realize that failing to pass the bailout would have dire consequences through the domino effect that you’ve mentioned.
What’s bothering me about it is that there are other problems in our society that have a domino effect, which the government (particularly the current administration) takes no initiative to resolve. Poverty is one such problem. I shudder when I think about how Hurricane Katrina’s victims were ignored for days. Reporters could get in, but not the government? It was a travesty.
There are a lot of different perspectives on this bailout and on the economy at large. I am not claiming to have a specific position on it (I don’t know enough to really take such a position). What I do know is that most people living in the ghetto don’t even know that there’s a way to get out. Many inner city kids believe they will die before they turn 20. They sell drugs not because the money’s good (it’s not — in fact it’s often lower than minimum wage) but because there are no jobs in their communities. They attend schools that are overcrowded and run-down, that don’t have adequate books and equipment. Their morale is shot to hell. A lot of them live in single-parent homes with a parent who is never around or who is just as ignorant about opportunity and potential.
Who is to blame for this epidemic of poverty in our nation? Who is responsible for fixing it? How do you tell millions of depraved, impoverished people that they can do more with their lives?
My point is that we are willing to do this bailout but so unwilling to put taxpayer money to other good causes. Ending poverty, particularly here in the U.S. should be a high priority. Believe me, I do NOT support free handouts, but there are people who could benefit greatly from just a little help, a little inspiration, and some good old-fashioned education.
Confucius said, “In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of.” I tend to agree with him.
Melissa Donovans last blog post..October News and Announcements
Oops, my last comment should have been addressed to Blogger Dads. Let’s see, Writer Dad, Blogger Dad, and my own Dad. That’s a lot to keep track of!
Melissa Donovans last blog post..October News and Announcements
Oops, my last comment should have been addressed to Blogger Dads. Let’s see, Writer Dad, Blogger Dad, and my own Dad. That’s a lot to keep track of!
Melissa Donovans last blog post..October News and Announcements
I love your points Melissa. Hurricane Katrina was such a stark example of this societies priorities.
I love your points Melissa. Hurricane Katrina was such a stark example of this societies priorities.
Blogger Dad,
I disagree that the bailout is necessary, no matter what the “domino effect”. The fact is we cannot fully know what the domino will be nor how far it will stretch. It would take too long to do the math, so blanket statements are made. I think that citing the possible problems is a fear tactic used by politicians trying to get the proposal passed. If there were widespread fallout, then perhaps it would be a good thing by finally waking people up to the importance of business ethics, which seems to have fallen by the wayside despite what news media would have us believe.
Melissa,
Very good points. I disagree that wealth is something to be ashamed about. I think the acceptance of unethical business practices is something to be ashamed of. But that should not fall to government to police. In a capitalist market which so many people say they want in this country, the consumer needs to “vote” with their wallet. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The art of the boycott is lost in this country. It is effective. Far more effective then the random government intervention into consumer industries based upon the constituents with the biggest bankroll. Either we let the consumers handle which businesses succeed and fail or we let the government decide. We cannot have both and expect the economy to work. The bailout will ultimately hurt our economy. I can guarantee that.
Benjamin,
I disagree that the act of raising a minimum wage does anything good for the country other than pumping a little more disposable income into the pockets of people who will not save it, but rather waste it on luxuries like cable television while complaining that they are poor. I lived in an area of my city with a large amount of subsidized housing, where most people were on food stamps, and yet almost every home had a flat screen television and digital cable service. I’m not saying that poor people should not have these things, but I was astonished that these people were not responsible enough to cancel their cable when strapped for cash. The average cable bill is nearly $200 USD per month!
I made much more than minimum wage while living there in regular housing, and I had neither a television nor cable service. If anything, the middle class in this country are the ones who get screwed most often. Education is easily attainable for those with and those without money, but if you fall in the middle, you had better go get your own bank loan because financial aid is reserved for others.
There are lots of opportunities in this country for those who want it. Sometimes you need to know where to look, but then again, if you want to effect change in your life, you should show a desire to do so. Simply giving more handouts does not cause a behavioral change that is needed in some people. Giving more handouts to those who do not try to do anything for themselves just reinforces that behavior positively.
Again, not every person in poverty is the same. Some try hard to get out of it. Some don’t try at all because it’s easier to live off of handouts than to try to scratch your way to a “better” life. Why? Because there’s a level of income that, once reached, will cut you off from government assistance, but still leave you well short of the money needed to survive. The “poverty level” line is not a clear cut definition between being able to make ends meet and not. There’s a wide income range that is not livable in the United States.
Once again, this has turned into a compelling conversation, and it would be even more interesting if you expounded upon your points. I have taken the time to read some of your articles on your site to gain a better understanding of your beliefs and background. I don’t think 50 people missed your point. I think 50 people have presented arguments (some rather eloquent) to your point, and not all of those arguments are the same either.
In any case, I am rambling and have spent too many words in this comment. Be well and enjoy your mini-holiday.
Ian
Ians last blog post..Market for IPO’s Hit 30-Year-Low
Blogger Dad,
I disagree that the bailout is necessary, no matter what the “domino effect”. The fact is we cannot fully know what the domino will be nor how far it will stretch. It would take too long to do the math, so blanket statements are made. I think that citing the possible problems is a fear tactic used by politicians trying to get the proposal passed. If there were widespread fallout, then perhaps it would be a good thing by finally waking people up to the importance of business ethics, which seems to have fallen by the wayside despite what news media would have us believe.
Melissa,
Very good points. I disagree that wealth is something to be ashamed about. I think the acceptance of unethical business practices is something to be ashamed of. But that should not fall to government to police. In a capitalist market which so many people say they want in this country, the consumer needs to “vote” with their wallet. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The art of the boycott is lost in this country. It is effective. Far more effective then the random government intervention into consumer industries based upon the constituents with the biggest bankroll. Either we let the consumers handle which businesses succeed and fail or we let the government decide. We cannot have both and expect the economy to work. The bailout will ultimately hurt our economy. I can guarantee that.
Benjamin,
I disagree that the act of raising a minimum wage does anything good for the country other than pumping a little more disposable income into the pockets of people who will not save it, but rather waste it on luxuries like cable television while complaining that they are poor. I lived in an area of my city with a large amount of subsidized housing, where most people were on food stamps, and yet almost every home had a flat screen television and digital cable service. I’m not saying that poor people should not have these things, but I was astonished that these people were not responsible enough to cancel their cable when strapped for cash. The average cable bill is nearly $200 USD per month!
I made much more than minimum wage while living there in regular housing, and I had neither a television nor cable service. If anything, the middle class in this country are the ones who get screwed most often. Education is easily attainable for those with and those without money, but if you fall in the middle, you had better go get your own bank loan because financial aid is reserved for others.
There are lots of opportunities in this country for those who want it. Sometimes you need to know where to look, but then again, if you want to effect change in your life, you should show a desire to do so. Simply giving more handouts does not cause a behavioral change that is needed in some people. Giving more handouts to those who do not try to do anything for themselves just reinforces that behavior positively.
Again, not every person in poverty is the same. Some try hard to get out of it. Some don’t try at all because it’s easier to live off of handouts than to try to scratch your way to a “better” life. Why? Because there’s a level of income that, once reached, will cut you off from government assistance, but still leave you well short of the money needed to survive. The “poverty level” line is not a clear cut definition between being able to make ends meet and not. There’s a wide income range that is not livable in the United States.
Once again, this has turned into a compelling conversation, and it would be even more interesting if you expounded upon your points. I have taken the time to read some of your articles on your site to gain a better understanding of your beliefs and background. I don’t think 50 people missed your point. I think 50 people have presented arguments (some rather eloquent) to your point, and not all of those arguments are the same either.
In any case, I am rambling and have spent too many words in this comment. Be well and enjoy your mini-holiday.
Ian
Ians last blog post..Market for IPO’s Hit 30-Year-Low
I have to chime in about the poverty mentality thing, sorry.
I was a home health nurse for 7 years, and worked the hospital for 3 before that. I met a lot of people, from all walks of life. I was in homes weekly, sometimes daily. I became intimate with their way of life; I knew where they kept the toilet paper, and their stash of weed. I knew when they slept till noon, became depressed, or were having a bad day. Many of my patients, perhaps 50%, were below the poverty level.
So many times, I would put on my social worker hat and offer these people ways to raise their income, get an education, get off the system and support themselves. More often than not, they would throw out excuses, fight tooth and nail to keep their government issued check.
My guess is that fear kept them from something better, from change. However, I watched as these people taught their children to be poor instead of telling them about the possibilities life has to offer. It was almost as if there was pride in being poor.
In frustration, I called it ‘generations of stupid’, because it was a family heritage to be uneducated and poor, even when opportunities were presented to live differently.
There is a poverty mentality. I have no idea who is to blame, but it exists. Perhaps the fear of the unknown and fear of change is to blame, but that’s part of living life. We all must face down fear and make the decision to jump in with both feet, over our heads. Dive Deep.
This concludes my sermon for the day, thank you for listening. ;)
Jamie Simmermans last blog post..Pick Another Pen Men Brain: Charlie Pabst
I have to chime in about the poverty mentality thing, sorry.
I was a home health nurse for 7 years, and worked the hospital for 3 before that. I met a lot of people, from all walks of life. I was in homes weekly, sometimes daily. I became intimate with their way of life; I knew where they kept the toilet paper, and their stash of weed. I knew when they slept till noon, became depressed, or were having a bad day. Many of my patients, perhaps 50%, were below the poverty level.
So many times, I would put on my social worker hat and offer these people ways to raise their income, get an education, get off the system and support themselves. More often than not, they would throw out excuses, fight tooth and nail to keep their government issued check.
My guess is that fear kept them from something better, from change. However, I watched as these people taught their children to be poor instead of telling them about the possibilities life has to offer. It was almost as if there was pride in being poor.
In frustration, I called it ‘generations of stupid’, because it was a family heritage to be uneducated and poor, even when opportunities were presented to live differently.
There is a poverty mentality. I have no idea who is to blame, but it exists. Perhaps the fear of the unknown and fear of change is to blame, but that’s part of living life. We all must face down fear and make the decision to jump in with both feet, over our heads. Dive Deep.
This concludes my sermon for the day, thank you for listening. ;)
Jamie Simmermans last blog post..Pick Another Pen Men Brain: Charlie Pabst
First of all, I don’t want to speak about politics and I will not.
Again, I believe this has nothing to do with politics at all. It has to do with, what I call, the “monster” effect. That is when somebody disagrees with us in some core issue we tend to think he is either immoral, stupid or both.
It is not so.
Benjamin, with all due respect, the core of this issue is not if that boy was poor or not. But that he wanted to do what he wanted or else. Root issues? Sure. But we have absolutely no way to know what they are.
Then you came and made a personal attack on Writer Dad. I do believe what I have read is a personal attack. If it’s not, sorry, but apparently that’s how your words have been interpreted by many people. Not just me.
I don’t believe you are trolling, or trying a sneaky way to drive traffic to your site. My heart still moves when I listen Bau Auf, the International or the Varshavianka. 1991 was personally devastating for me…
But, still and precisely when you are addressing someone who has vastly different political or religious view to yours, you have to use extreme courtesy. Only then, you can help to honest and serious thought.
Miguel de Luiss last blog post..May I help you?
First of all, I don’t want to speak about politics and I will not.
Again, I believe this has nothing to do with politics at all. It has to do with, what I call, the “monster” effect. That is when somebody disagrees with us in some core issue we tend to think he is either immoral, stupid or both.
It is not so.
Benjamin, with all due respect, the core of this issue is not if that boy was poor or not. But that he wanted to do what he wanted or else. Root issues? Sure. But we have absolutely no way to know what they are.
Then you came and made a personal attack on Writer Dad. I do believe what I have read is a personal attack. If it’s not, sorry, but apparently that’s how your words have been interpreted by many people. Not just me.
I don’t believe you are trolling, or trying a sneaky way to drive traffic to your site. My heart still moves when I listen Bau Auf, the International or the Varshavianka. 1991 was personally devastating for me…
But, still and precisely when you are addressing someone who has vastly different political or religious view to yours, you have to use extreme courtesy. Only then, you can help to honest and serious thought.
Miguel de Luiss last blog post..May I help you?
“Oh, and yeah, I have stuck stickers up. Not just randomly, though. There were about 20,000 stickers printed with the words “Stop Bush!” and protest details, last year, before Bush came to Sydney. I proudly played a key role in stickering the whole of Sydney that brought 20,000 people out to protest War, Racism and Poverty of Bush and Co.”
Benjamin,
I’m just curious, what makes you different from the kid stickering postal stickers around WD’s neighborhood? If it’s to be broken down, isn’t it just as vandalizing? Just because your stickers have a political statement, does that take away the “vandal” part of it? Isn’t there someone who is responsible for cleaning up all the stickers and posters that you put up all around Sydney?
I’m all for free speech and the right to protest, but I would be offended if it were my office building that you so proudly stickered/postered, whether I agreed with your message or not. Feel free to sticker your own property. Walk around carrying a great big sign. Stand on a street corner and pass out flyers. Don’t resort to vandalism just to get a point across. I’m actually a little surprised that you see a difference in these two events.
What would you have done if a Writer Dad had confronted you about putting a sticker in their neighborhood in Sydney?
Kool Aids last blog post..The ripple effect
“Oh, and yeah, I have stuck stickers up. Not just randomly, though. There were about 20,000 stickers printed with the words “Stop Bush!” and protest details, last year, before Bush came to Sydney. I proudly played a key role in stickering the whole of Sydney that brought 20,000 people out to protest War, Racism and Poverty of Bush and Co.”
Benjamin,
I’m just curious, what makes you different from the kid stickering postal stickers around WD’s neighborhood? If it’s to be broken down, isn’t it just as vandalizing? Just because your stickers have a political statement, does that take away the “vandal” part of it? Isn’t there someone who is responsible for cleaning up all the stickers and posters that you put up all around Sydney?
I’m all for free speech and the right to protest, but I would be offended if it were my office building that you so proudly stickered/postered, whether I agreed with your message or not. Feel free to sticker your own property. Walk around carrying a great big sign. Stand on a street corner and pass out flyers. Don’t resort to vandalism just to get a point across. I’m actually a little surprised that you see a difference in these two events.
What would you have done if a Writer Dad had confronted you about putting a sticker in their neighborhood in Sydney?
Kool Aids last blog post..The ripple effect
Here’s a quote by Bono. I found it interesting:
“It is extraordinary to me that you can find $700 billion to save Wall Street and the entire G8 can’t find $25 billion to save 25,000 children who die every day of preventable treatable disease and hunger,” the U2 lead singer told Clinton’s fourth annual philanthropic summit in New York. “That’s mad, that is mad.” … “Bankruptcy is a serious business and we all know people who have lost their jobs,” Bono said, referring to the bankruptcy declared by Wall Street investment bank Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. “But this is moral bankruptcy.”
Also, in order to provide clean drinking water to the entire globe, it would cost roughly $8billion. That’s how much we Americans spend yearly on ice cream.
I guess I should put that on a sticker, huh?
Here’s a quote by Bono. I found it interesting:
“It is extraordinary to me that you can find $700 billion to save Wall Street and the entire G8 can’t find $25 billion to save 25,000 children who die every day of preventable treatable disease and hunger,” the U2 lead singer told Clinton’s fourth annual philanthropic summit in New York. “That’s mad, that is mad.” … “Bankruptcy is a serious business and we all know people who have lost their jobs,” Bono said, referring to the bankruptcy declared by Wall Street investment bank Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. “But this is moral bankruptcy.”
Also, in order to provide clean drinking water to the entire globe, it would cost roughly $8billion. That’s how much we Americans spend yearly on ice cream.
I guess I should put that on a sticker, huh?
Melissa: Please don’t every worry about a typo. We’re all human, and I make them all the time. I have no problem with differing perspective and I quite enjoy debate. I feel that Benjamin is being evasive, however, and not answering any of the readers’ perfectly legitimate question.
Benjamin: The post will still be here next week. You have all the time in the world to answer the questions. This is good. Let them marinate, so that they might be sharper. America IS the land of opportunity. Yes there are flaws, yes they are numerous, yes there is work to be done, but it is still an amazing country where you can climb the ladder no matter who your father was. Even uphill battles are worth fighting, why else would you be a Marxist? By plastering 20,000 stickers you forced yourself on all the janitors you claim to care for. There is a wide chasm between stickering and postering. One has nothing to do with the other. This kid wasn’t on a march, he was being blindly disrespectful without anything to say. It’s quite obvious that it is his behavior you are defending, not him. Your last sentence is ridiculous. Enjoy your holiday. I hope we hear from you next week.
Blogger Dad/Melissa: I should probably do an entirely separate post on the economic bailout, as it’s a great discussion. I know this won’t win any friends, but I think we should see the country’s economy collapse, and then, as a nation, work our way through it. We were never stronger than we were after the Great Depression. People are spoiled, and don’t know what it’s like to be hungry. We’ve swept the problem under the rug for too close to an infinity, the Fed lowering the interest rate every time the country starts to sweat. They’ve constructed finances with a house of cards, and it was bound to collapse. The best way to make sure it doesn’t happen again, is for there to be a drastic consequence that makes us all reevaluate our own behavior.
Benjamin: I thought you were on holiday. It’s amazing that you still have time when someone agrees with you.
Ian: Nail on head, brother, nail on head. Everything, not a single word out of place.
Jamie: A lot of people don’t want to change. Though the degrees vary, everyone in this country is afforded some level of opportunity. This is not true in all political systems, and something that Benjamin is refusing to recognize.
Miguel: I do not know you well, but I read depth in your words (and I love what you do with the duality on your site). I agree with everything you are saying.
Kool Aid: It is absolutely vandalism. No difference. Still, I have more of a problem with the kid than I would the other way. Even if I don’t agree, at least one has purpose. My vandal had none whatsoever, which is why he needed to understand that their were consequences to his actions.
Blake: That is a fantastic quote. $8 Billion for the entire globe’s drinking water sounds unreasonably cheap. I’ll have to look that up. But the point is well taken.
Melissa: Please don’t every worry about a typo. We’re all human, and I make them all the time. I have no problem with differing perspective and I quite enjoy debate. I feel that Benjamin is being evasive, however, and not answering any of the readers’ perfectly legitimate question.
Benjamin: The post will still be here next week. You have all the time in the world to answer the questions. This is good. Let them marinate, so that they might be sharper. America IS the land of opportunity. Yes there are flaws, yes they are numerous, yes there is work to be done, but it is still an amazing country where you can climb the ladder no matter who your father was. Even uphill battles are worth fighting, why else would you be a Marxist? By plastering 20,000 stickers you forced yourself on all the janitors you claim to care for. There is a wide chasm between stickering and postering. One has nothing to do with the other. This kid wasn’t on a march, he was being blindly disrespectful without anything to say. It’s quite obvious that it is his behavior you are defending, not him. Your last sentence is ridiculous. Enjoy your holiday. I hope we hear from you next week.
Blogger Dad/Melissa: I should probably do an entirely separate post on the economic bailout, as it’s a great discussion. I know this won’t win any friends, but I think we should see the country’s economy collapse, and then, as a nation, work our way through it. We were never stronger than we were after the Great Depression. People are spoiled, and don’t know what it’s like to be hungry. We’ve swept the problem under the rug for too close to an infinity, the Fed lowering the interest rate every time the country starts to sweat. They’ve constructed finances with a house of cards, and it was bound to collapse. The best way to make sure it doesn’t happen again, is for there to be a drastic consequence that makes us all reevaluate our own behavior.
Benjamin: I thought you were on holiday. It’s amazing that you still have time when someone agrees with you.
Ian: Nail on head, brother, nail on head. Everything, not a single word out of place.
Jamie: A lot of people don’t want to change. Though the degrees vary, everyone in this country is afforded some level of opportunity. This is not true in all political systems, and something that Benjamin is refusing to recognize.
Miguel: I do not know you well, but I read depth in your words (and I love what you do with the duality on your site). I agree with everything you are saying.
Kool Aid: It is absolutely vandalism. No difference. Still, I have more of a problem with the kid than I would the other way. Even if I don’t agree, at least one has purpose. My vandal had none whatsoever, which is why he needed to understand that their were consequences to his actions.
Blake: That is a fantastic quote. $8 Billion for the entire globe’s drinking water sounds unreasonably cheap. I’ll have to look that up. But the point is well taken.
This is a great conversation!
@Blogger Dad – I can’t see how this bailout is good. I read your comment but still do not see the good in it. You say if the market crashes then we will see a domino affect. Why should we be bailing out the people who made this happen? Why should there be no consequences for those who caused this? Why does the government take our taxes and put them in the stock market? If that was not the case, the money we give would be safe and not be lost when the “big money” players sell their stocks and crash the market. From what I can see Bush said the market will hurt if the bill doesn’t pass, to me he was just telling them to bring it down and scare everyone that the market will crash. Then it drops 200 points and now he says, see what I told you.
Look, I am not a financial analyst or claim to know anything about the economy, but this doesn’t feel right.
@ Kool Aid – Agreed!
@ Ian – “Vote” with the wallet, perfect. We do have some control over this, not much but some. If we could get enough people to do the same thing, it could work. But too many people are not listening.
As for Victim / Poverty mentality. This is what I believe and it has worked for me. I grew up in RI very poor. I mean very poor with a crackhead for a mother. I have a background that should have me in jail or living on the streets. But I believe in the “Law of Attraction” and it has helped me to be successful and own many businesses while living in beautiful Costa Rica. Maybe I am lucky, but I think it has to do with attitude.
If you are positive and truly believe that there is something better out there, that something better will come to you. So says the law of attraction. Read “the Secret”, it was an eye opener for me.
~ Jim
This is a great conversation!
@Blogger Dad – I can’t see how this bailout is good. I read your comment but still do not see the good in it. You say if the market crashes then we will see a domino affect. Why should we be bailing out the people who made this happen? Why should there be no consequences for those who caused this? Why does the government take our taxes and put them in the stock market? If that was not the case, the money we give would be safe and not be lost when the “big money” players sell their stocks and crash the market. From what I can see Bush said the market will hurt if the bill doesn’t pass, to me he was just telling them to bring it down and scare everyone that the market will crash. Then it drops 200 points and now he says, see what I told you.
Look, I am not a financial analyst or claim to know anything about the economy, but this doesn’t feel right.
@ Kool Aid – Agreed!
@ Ian – “Vote” with the wallet, perfect. We do have some control over this, not much but some. If we could get enough people to do the same thing, it could work. But too many people are not listening.
As for Victim / Poverty mentality. This is what I believe and it has worked for me. I grew up in RI very poor. I mean very poor with a crackhead for a mother. I have a background that should have me in jail or living on the streets. But I believe in the “Law of Attraction” and it has helped me to be successful and own many businesses while living in beautiful Costa Rica. Maybe I am lucky, but I think it has to do with attitude.
If you are positive and truly believe that there is something better out there, that something better will come to you. So says the law of attraction. Read “the Secret”, it was an eye opener for me.
~ Jim
WD, you’re right. I mistyped. The cost of providing basic health, nutrition, and clean drinking water for the world is estimated to be $20 billion.
Which is how much Americans spend on ice cream alone in one single year.
You knew we spent more than $8 billion on ice cream, right?
Blakes last blog post..Writer Dad…check him out
WD, you’re right. I mistyped. The cost of providing basic health, nutrition, and clean drinking water for the world is estimated to be $20 billion.
Which is how much Americans spend on ice cream alone in one single year.
You knew we spent more than $8 billion on ice cream, right?
Blakes last blog post..Writer Dad…check him out
I’m sorry for being a bitch, but I’ve just known too many kids like Benjamin (I’m assuming he’s a kid from how unformed and parroted his arguments are… my guess is no more than 21). When I went to school at UC Berkeley, I called them “Mumia-ists” based on freeing Mumia, a pet cause back then. In general, these are the most close minded people I have ever met. Benjamin says that people are not taking his point, but what’s actually going on is everyone else is giving his ideas far more respect than he is returning. Benjamin will never change his mind or listen to reason. . . it’s just not his M.O.
That said, there has been loads of lovely, well-articulated discussion here (none of it coming from Benjamin whose initials spell B.S., btw).
a couple more asides:
1. has anyone seen thestoryofstuff.com ? It’s a movie (slightly pandering but I’ll forgive it) about our consumer driven culture and it’s amazing. Very pertinent to what WD and BD have been saying with regards to the bailout. The gist of it is that our government made the decision post WWII to make our economy a consumption based one to kick start it… basically sending us into the horrible spiral we’re in now and causing a great deal of our environmental and economic problems
2. Here in the good ol’ USA, we’re pretty damn spoiled. We have such a horrible sense of entitlement. A lot of people are pissing and moaning about being “poor” when they are insanely wealthy compared to past generations. I have spent a good deal of my adult life living “below the poverty line” according to the government and yet I have always had my own apartment and never lacked for essentials. Not having cable TV, an SUV, an iphone, etc etc does not mean you are “poor.” We really need to get a sense of perspective.
3. Is ANYONE else bothered by the fact that our friend B.S. (Benjamin) is an Aussie? Dude, you’re not American so quit talking about our problems like you are one. P.S. what the hell are you doing blogging. . . don’t you know there’s a BAILOUT to worry about?
(and because internet sarcasm doesn’t come through… that was a reference to Benji’s first or second post 2 days ago).
4. Finally (sorry for rambling so much) Blogger Dad, I love you. Truly and sincerely. It’s like you’re saying what I’m thinking. You’re all Ayn Rand if she weren’t insane and homophobic. Plus, your post about McDonald’s was fucking hilarious. And P.S. I went to a McDonald’s in Georgia last month that had marble columns, plants, and a frigging fireplace. They are NOT doling out the McDonald’s love equally.
I’m sorry for being a bitch, but I’ve just known too many kids like Benjamin (I’m assuming he’s a kid from how unformed and parroted his arguments are… my guess is no more than 21). When I went to school at UC Berkeley, I called them “Mumia-ists” based on freeing Mumia, a pet cause back then. In general, these are the most close minded people I have ever met. Benjamin says that people are not taking his point, but what’s actually going on is everyone else is giving his ideas far more respect than he is returning. Benjamin will never change his mind or listen to reason. . . it’s just not his M.O.
That said, there has been loads of lovely, well-articulated discussion here (none of it coming from Benjamin whose initials spell B.S., btw).
a couple more asides:
1. has anyone seen thestoryofstuff.com ? It’s a movie (slightly pandering but I’ll forgive it) about our consumer driven culture and it’s amazing. Very pertinent to what WD and BD have been saying with regards to the bailout. The gist of it is that our government made the decision post WWII to make our economy a consumption based one to kick start it… basically sending us into the horrible spiral we’re in now and causing a great deal of our environmental and economic problems
2. Here in the good ol’ USA, we’re pretty damn spoiled. We have such a horrible sense of entitlement. A lot of people are pissing and moaning about being “poor” when they are insanely wealthy compared to past generations. I have spent a good deal of my adult life living “below the poverty line” according to the government and yet I have always had my own apartment and never lacked for essentials. Not having cable TV, an SUV, an iphone, etc etc does not mean you are “poor.” We really need to get a sense of perspective.
3. Is ANYONE else bothered by the fact that our friend B.S. (Benjamin) is an Aussie? Dude, you’re not American so quit talking about our problems like you are one. P.S. what the hell are you doing blogging. . . don’t you know there’s a BAILOUT to worry about?
(and because internet sarcasm doesn’t come through… that was a reference to Benji’s first or second post 2 days ago).
4. Finally (sorry for rambling so much) Blogger Dad, I love you. Truly and sincerely. It’s like you’re saying what I’m thinking. You’re all Ayn Rand if she weren’t insane and homophobic. Plus, your post about McDonald’s was fucking hilarious. And P.S. I went to a McDonald’s in Georgia last month that had marble columns, plants, and a frigging fireplace. They are NOT doling out the McDonald’s love equally.
There are so many great comments in this discussion. I have a few things to add:
First of all, I do see some value in graffiti. It is often artful. I also see some value in political stickers. I would be a lot more tolerant of political stickers on my stop sign than just some random sticker.
This issue came up for me during the Democratic National Convention in Denver. I was on the streets, amazed by the legions of police. What were they so afraid of? That some corporate guy wouldn’t get to his party on time?
I think we’ve forgotten that exercising our rights to speech and allowing others to exercise theirs will inconvenience us some of the time. But it might also make us think.
That said, I still agree with what Writer Dad did. I just would draw a line between stickering for kicks and stickering to make a political point.
Beths last blog post..Wandering around Uptown
There are so many great comments in this discussion. I have a few things to add:
First of all, I do see some value in graffiti. It is often artful. I also see some value in political stickers. I would be a lot more tolerant of political stickers on my stop sign than just some random sticker.
This issue came up for me during the Democratic National Convention in Denver. I was on the streets, amazed by the legions of police. What were they so afraid of? That some corporate guy wouldn’t get to his party on time?
I think we’ve forgotten that exercising our rights to speech and allowing others to exercise theirs will inconvenience us some of the time. But it might also make us think.
That said, I still agree with what Writer Dad did. I just would draw a line between stickering for kicks and stickering to make a political point.
Beths last blog post..Wandering around Uptown
Jim: It is, isn’t it? What Ian said is one of my favorite things so far. Thank you for your childhood example. I think that’s amazing. I do believe it’s important to have a positive outlook, and be willing to work hard. Good things often follow.
Blake: Those numbers are perfectly believable. And sad. Thank you.
KittyTown: You’re not being a bitch at all. That’s funny about B.S. In my first draft of yesterday’s post, I had all kinds of nicknames for Benjamin. That was one. In the end, I decided to rewrite the post and behave like a gentleman. I’m glad you did it for me. It’s too beautifully obvious to pass up.
I remember when you told me about this doc, I think on our last wedding setup. I’ve yet to check it out, but I promise I will. Everything you said is dead on, and yes, Blogger Dad is the unadulterated shit. I wasn’t kidding about you doing a guest post about how you chased down the mugger. It would be awesome. If you don’t want to, could you email the specifics so I could write it? Please fill it with typos so I’m not tempted to use it like last time.
By the way, happy anniversary. I love you.
Writer Bro
Beth: There is a wide difference between political peppering and vandalism. One has purpose, one does not.
Jim: It is, isn’t it? What Ian said is one of my favorite things so far. Thank you for your childhood example. I think that’s amazing. I do believe it’s important to have a positive outlook, and be willing to work hard. Good things often follow.
Blake: Those numbers are perfectly believable. And sad. Thank you.
KittyTown: You’re not being a bitch at all. That’s funny about B.S. In my first draft of yesterday’s post, I had all kinds of nicknames for Benjamin. That was one. In the end, I decided to rewrite the post and behave like a gentleman. I’m glad you did it for me. It’s too beautifully obvious to pass up.
I remember when you told me about this doc, I think on our last wedding setup. I’ve yet to check it out, but I promise I will. Everything you said is dead on, and yes, Blogger Dad is the unadulterated shit. I wasn’t kidding about you doing a guest post about how you chased down the mugger. It would be awesome. If you don’t want to, could you email the specifics so I could write it? Please fill it with typos so I’m not tempted to use it like last time.
By the way, happy anniversary. I love you.
Writer Bro
Beth: There is a wide difference between political peppering and vandalism. One has purpose, one does not.
Mellissa, Ian and Jim – My post describes the theory of the bailout from the perspective of those who argue that it should happen. I’m not arguing in favor of a bailout. I was simply trying to explain the stakes and why it should and how it COULD matter to the average person. I used an example of unforeseen events which have happened because of Florida’s voter-approved property tax cuts last year. The people voted for tax cuts thinking they would hurt the wasteful government that doesn’t care about them. In fact, the opposite has happened. Voters shot themselves in the feet. Although, I’m sure some of the voters don’t mind because the cuts don’t affect them personally. Believe me, if there is economic pain from a shot down bailout plan, it will be felt by the average person on the street more than the much despised CEO’s.
Economics is a very complex issue so I won’t presume to say I know what they should do. I see both sides. The side for it, and the side against it. Some on the far, FAR, FAR left (somewhere in Benjamin land) suggest that the bailout is simply a plan for the Bush administration to overthrow democracy.
Kittytown – Thanks for the love. It’s a mutual thing! And I don’t think I’ve ever been compared to Ayn Rand before :) By the way, that McDonald’s you went to must have been Mayor McCheese’s Mansion! That is where I will stage my McRevolution! Now if only I knew someone who could help me spread some anti-McDonald’s stickers… Hmmm, anyone?
Blogger Dads last blog post..Eight Questions – Interview with Barbara Swafford of Blogging Without a Blog
Mellissa, Ian and Jim – My post describes the theory of the bailout from the perspective of those who argue that it should happen. I’m not arguing in favor of a bailout. I was simply trying to explain the stakes and why it should and how it COULD matter to the average person. I used an example of unforeseen events which have happened because of Florida’s voter-approved property tax cuts last year. The people voted for tax cuts thinking they would hurt the wasteful government that doesn’t care about them. In fact, the opposite has happened. Voters shot themselves in the feet. Although, I’m sure some of the voters don’t mind because the cuts don’t affect them personally. Believe me, if there is economic pain from a shot down bailout plan, it will be felt by the average person on the street more than the much despised CEO’s.
Economics is a very complex issue so I won’t presume to say I know what they should do. I see both sides. The side for it, and the side against it. Some on the far, FAR, FAR left (somewhere in Benjamin land) suggest that the bailout is simply a plan for the Bush administration to overthrow democracy.
Kittytown – Thanks for the love. It’s a mutual thing! And I don’t think I’ve ever been compared to Ayn Rand before :) By the way, that McDonald’s you went to must have been Mayor McCheese’s Mansion! That is where I will stage my McRevolution! Now if only I knew someone who could help me spread some anti-McDonald’s stickers… Hmmm, anyone?
Blogger Dads last blog post..Eight Questions – Interview with Barbara Swafford of Blogging Without a Blog
@Blogger Dad – Sorry, guess I misread your post. I like that you can observer both sides of the discussion.
@Blogger Dad – Sorry, guess I misread your post. I like that you can observer both sides of the discussion.
About Benjamin Solah — he did actually have a point to make, even though he was overly sarcastic and mean about it. I was glad to see that people responded to that. kittytown’s objection that he ought not to comment if he’s not from the US was rather odd, appearing as it did after favorable comments from people outside the US who did not get challenged for commenting.
Writer Dad, why so defensive? I’m sorry, but agreeing with Matthew that “He [Benjamin] is a spoiled brat” is not “behaving like a gentleman.” While the comments Benjamin wrote were insulting and provocative, that comment of yours, along with your defenders (mostly kittytown) using nicknames for him, making fun of his initials, calling him most likely “a kid” who’s “no more than 21,” and the other putdowns have left me feeling a bit soiled.
As we said when I was a kid, two wrongs don’t make a right. Surely you all are more mature than this?
About Benjamin Solah — he did actually have a point to make, even though he was overly sarcastic and mean about it. I was glad to see that people responded to that. kittytown’s objection that he ought not to comment if he’s not from the US was rather odd, appearing as it did after favorable comments from people outside the US who did not get challenged for commenting.
Writer Dad, why so defensive? I’m sorry, but agreeing with Matthew that “He [Benjamin] is a spoiled brat” is not “behaving like a gentleman.” While the comments Benjamin wrote were insulting and provocative, that comment of yours, along with your defenders (mostly kittytown) using nicknames for him, making fun of his initials, calling him most likely “a kid” who’s “no more than 21,” and the other putdowns have left me feeling a bit soiled.
As we said when I was a kid, two wrongs don’t make a right. Surely you all are more mature than this?
Dot: KittyTown did not have issue with him commenting without being from the U.S. Her issue was that he was speaking of the problems of the United States in the first person, which has no authority to do. All comments are welcome. His was unique in that it spoke of things to which he could know only from second hand sources. I am not defensive in the least. If you refer back to the comment, I did not call Benjamin a spoiled brat. I called the ipod wielding vandal a spoiled brat, to which he is, unequivocally. This assessment, for me, is not second hand. KittyTown, in case you did not realize, is my sister. We are going to have a banter that is different from everyone else. I did not engage in such juvenile behavior with everyone else. KittyTown has every right for that sort of response from me. She has after all known me since I was a juvenile. All said, I think you would be hard pressed to find a more mature discussion elsewhere. I’m proud of the WD readers. I think they showed measured, articulate intelligence, and did not attack Benjamin as he assumed they would. He has been asked a bounty of questions which he has yet to respond to. My exchange with my sister notwithstanding, the entire incident, in my opinion, has been handled with a maturity to be proud of.
Dot: KittyTown did not have issue with him commenting without being from the U.S. Her issue was that he was speaking of the problems of the United States in the first person, which has no authority to do. All comments are welcome. His was unique in that it spoke of things to which he could know only from second hand sources. I am not defensive in the least. If you refer back to the comment, I did not call Benjamin a spoiled brat. I called the ipod wielding vandal a spoiled brat, to which he is, unequivocally. This assessment, for me, is not second hand. KittyTown, in case you did not realize, is my sister. We are going to have a banter that is different from everyone else. I did not engage in such juvenile behavior with everyone else. KittyTown has every right for that sort of response from me. She has after all known me since I was a juvenile. All said, I think you would be hard pressed to find a more mature discussion elsewhere. I’m proud of the WD readers. I think they showed measured, articulate intelligence, and did not attack Benjamin as he assumed they would. He has been asked a bounty of questions which he has yet to respond to. My exchange with my sister notwithstanding, the entire incident, in my opinion, has been handled with a maturity to be proud of.